VOA [Voice of America] Global English : May 17, 2020 12:00AM-01:00AM EDT
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VOA [Voice of America] Global English : May 17, 2020 12:00AM-01:00AM EDT
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- 2020-05-17
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- VOA [Voice of America] Global English
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00:00:00
Over governors in easing Kovan 1000
guidelines that prompted 10 u.s.
00:00:04
Senators to probe how sweeping Mr Trump
believes as emergency powers are they want
00:00:09
to see this administration's presidential
emergency action documents these little
00:00:14
known classified documents don't give
00:00:16
a president authority beyond what's in
the Constitution but they outline what
00:00:21
powers
00:00:21
a president believes the Constitution allows
him to exercise during national emergencies
00:00:27
a person who attended
00:00:28
a religious service on Mother's Day in
Northern California has tested positive for
00:00:32
the corona virus possibly exposing it to
more than 180 members of the congregation
00:00:38
County health officials say the church north
of Sacramento chose to open its doors
00:00:43
despite rules banning gatherings of any
size most people with the virus experienced
00:00:48
fever cough and more for up to 3 weeks older
adults and people with existing health
00:00:53
problems can face severe illness including
the manja and even death the safety of
00:00:58
Will hons coronavirus
test centers has become
00:01:00
a hot topic or resident with some concern
that the very act of getting tested could
00:01:05
expose them to the infection
the Chinese city with
00:01:08
a covert 1000 pandemic began has revved up
00:01:11
a massive testing campaign after 1st
cluster infections were confirmed this is
00:01:16
v.o.a.
00:01:16
News. China and South Korea are
said to have consulted Japan about
00:01:23
easing border controls on business
travels to help the Rev revive business
00:01:29
activities the ideal already implemented
between South Korea and China would allow
00:01:34
a fast track entry of business people if
they test negative for the new coronavirus
00:01:39
before depôt departure and after arrival
but Tokyo is cautious about relaxing
00:01:45
border controls at this point due to fears
of another spike in infections as well
00:01:50
as a lack of test kit for
travellers according to
00:01:52
a report Spanish prime minister Petro Senshi
has said that his government will seek
00:01:58
a final 4 week extension to its state
of emergency as daily deaths from the
00:02:03
coronavirus reach
00:02:05
a near 8 week low Spain has largely brought
its outbreak under control however
00:02:09
officials say restrictions
have to remain in place
00:02:12
a while longer as the country begins to
phase out its tough lockdown after pushing
00:02:17
through 4 previous extensions support for
Sanchez's left wing coalition is waning
00:02:22
in parliament while public opposition
is mounting demonstrations against the
00:02:26
government's handling of the health crisis
sprouted up from around Madrid this week
00:02:31
with protesters gathering to bang pots
and pans and chants the International
00:02:37
Olympic Committee said Saturday it would
make decisions about the staging of the
00:02:41
delayed Tokyo Olympic games
at the right time i.o.c.
00:02:45
President Thomas box that with over
00:02:48
a year still to go before the scheduled
opening of the July 23rd 2021 games it
00:02:54
would be hard to give a reliable answer
on how the world might look and the w h
00:02:59
o was instrumental in sharing
technical advice with the i.o.c.
00:03:02
During discussions that led to the postponement
of the games back in March 2 bodies
00:03:07
also signed an agreement Saturday which
advocates health like healthy lifestyles
00:03:12
including physical activity
sport an active recreation as
00:03:16
a tool for health across the globe.
The National Hurricane Center says
00:03:21
a low pressure system just off the coast
of east central Florida has become
00:03:25
a tropical depression and that a
tropical storm watch has been issued for
00:03:29
a portion of North Korea Carolina
meteorologist said Saturday that the storm is
00:03:33
located he said the central Florida coast
Democrats are demanding that the White
00:03:38
House hand over all records related
to President Trump's latest firing of
00:03:42
a federal watchdog this time the State
Department they suggested the secretary of
00:03:47
state might come Peel was responsible for
the firing of what may be what they say
00:03:52
is
00:03:52
a legal act of retaliation the chairman of
the House Foreign Affairs Committee and
00:03:57
the top Democrat of the Senate Foreign
Relations Committee announced their vests
00:04:01
Edition Saturday in
00:04:02
a letter to the administration Mr Trump
said late Friday that he was firing the
00:04:06
Inspector General Steve Linnik an Obama
administration appointee by remote I'm
00:04:11
Tommy deal the only news.
00:04:19
From Washington v.o.a.
00:04:21
Presents issues in the news.
00:04:30
Welcome to issues in the news on brand us
White House reporter or West Wing reports
00:04:36
and columnist for Dow Jones and USA Today
joining me on the panel this week via
00:04:43
Skype are Kimberly Adams she's correspondent
for Marketplace and Tom De Frank he's
00:04:49
contributing editor to National Journal
and here are this week's issues the
00:04:55
coronavirus death toll continues to rise
around the world some 300000 deaths so
00:05:02
far this has countries debate about how
when and even whether to reopen parts of
00:05:09
the economy the global economy continues
to reel from the virus the head of
00:05:14
America's central bank warns that the
downturn could get even worse. Will also
00:05:19
discuss efforts in India Africa and elsewhere
to contain the virus that debate is
00:05:26
fierce here in the United States which now
leads the world in confirmed cases and
00:05:32
deaths that virus by the way has now made
its way into the heart of the White House
00:05:38
also here in America
00:05:40
a federal judge has moved to block efforts
by the Trump administration to drop the
00:05:45
case against former national security
advisor Michael Flynn and America's highest
00:05:51
court the Supreme Court is weighing whether
Congress can force the president to
00:05:56
turn over his financial records Well
let's start with this Corona virus as I
00:06:02
mentioned nearly 4 and a half 1000000
cases worldwide some 300000 that's And
00:06:09
a vaccine still seems months away at best
and yet some countries are taking Clemen
00:06:14
are steps to really open their economies
for example in China where all this began
00:06:20
the big Disney resort in Shanghai is open
and the world's biggest hotel company
00:06:25
Marriott now says the worst may be over
just 2 examples here I can't really let's
00:06:32
start with you this debate over reopening
businesses getting people back to work
00:06:37
perfectly understandable but also understandable
are concerns about people's safety
00:06:42
how do you have
00:06:43
a kind of balance those 2 very real
concerns Well it's really kind of how each
00:06:48
individual person balances those concerns
See cuz businesses can decide to open if
00:06:54
their state decides if they should be
allowed if the federal government loosens
00:06:58
guideline to or really talking about is
the individual concerns that people have
00:07:03
about their own personal safety and what
they may or may not be willing to subject
00:07:08
themselves to now in the United
States of course there is
00:07:11
a political divide on this has been
00:07:13
a lot of research coming out in the last
week or so indicating that how worried you
00:07:19
. About coronavirus really depends on
where you live and honestly what kind of
00:07:24
media you're consuming me personally
when I was in Washington d.c.
00:07:28
Which is where I live everyone is wearing
masks people are doing their social
00:07:32
distancing lots of people are very worried
but I am right now in St Louis Missouri
00:07:37
where many people are wearing masks I'm
seeing lots of people hanging out with each
00:07:42
other businesses are getting ready to
reopen on Monday and people are planning to
00:07:47
go out and it's really it's very different
depending on where you are in America
00:07:52
and what you're thinking about now when it
comes to individual businesses there is
00:07:56
a concern about whether or not businesses
are going to be liable to eat at their
00:08:02
workers getting sick or people getting
sick at their locations and Congress is
00:08:08
looking at that and lawyers are already
talking about that because there have been
00:08:12
a few cases about business liability working
their way through the system you know
00:08:16
Tom leading the charge to reopen is
President Trump but you know there are now
00:08:21
confirmed cases of this buyers in the White
House itself people who are quite close
00:08:28
to the president how can he urge people
to go back to work when even his own
00:08:33
workplace does not appear to
be safe Well it's a bit of
00:08:37
a cannot progress and of course Boehner
you're right about that his his argument
00:08:42
here is if he and his closest associates
are tested every day even if the law must
00:08:48
be invited It's not like France or who are
separated physically hurt the most part
00:08:53
because princes press
secretary came down with
00:08:57
a virus he tested negative for several days
and then tested positive and then when
00:09:02
the president has this
nonsense in the Rose Garden
00:09:04
a few days ago everybody
except it's cell was wearing
00:09:09
a mask but back at the White House the
treatment is almost absolute He is
00:09:14
surrounded by people in the medical unit
here takes care of everybody. Tests
00:09:19
constantly but it raises the question how
can you be how can anyone be confident
00:09:25
that you're going to be safe in the epicenter
of the United States government the
00:09:29
White House just popping up with a handful
of cases and he's been unable to answer
00:09:36
a question that has been put to him
00:09:39
a couple of times now you know everybody
in the White House as you mentioned
00:09:43
there's test taking with you go in and
the president and people around him are
00:09:48
tested constantly and yet it's been said
by his new press secretary that while
00:09:54
testing for Americans on
00:09:56
a widespread basis isn't the word that she
used was nonsensical How is it logical
00:10:02
to do this widespread testing in the White
House but not logical to do it elsewhere
00:10:08
probably because there are fewer number
of individuals that you have to test to
00:10:13
have
00:10:13
a much expanded testing program in the
United States you're going to have to test
00:10:18
millions and millions and millions of people
more or less constantly every day and
00:10:24
that's a lot of people that's
00:10:25
a lot of expense and to be very blunt about
it the testing when you think testing
00:10:30
is warranted or not a lot
more testing will show
00:10:34
a lot more cases of individuals who either
haven't the virus and shown no symptoms
00:10:40
or headed in or now I mean and so all
those numbers will add to the totals and
00:10:45
there are some in the White House who don't
want to risk those sorts of totals I'm
00:10:50
not saying I am not saying the White House
is playing politics here I am saying the
00:10:56
political calculations about testing and
about reopening States there have some
00:11:04
have some validity there are political
calculations and political consequences and
00:11:09
you can't believe otherwise but I mean
time and this is for you I think it
00:11:13
carefully I've Dr Anthony found she is
arguably the best known medical officials.
00:11:19
In the United States certainly highly
respected he is urging caution he testified
00:11:25
before the Senate
00:11:26
a couple of days ago on video
said that opening the economy. To
00:11:33
quoting here he said suffering and death
that could be avoided what do you think of
00:11:39
that you know it's very interesting in that
hearing of she was Dr felt she was very
00:11:44
careful to say he's like look I'm not here
to make economic projections about what
00:11:49
is and isn't good for the economy I'm here
to talk about what's going to happen to
00:11:53
public health and he said you know yes
without widespread testing without isolation
00:11:59
without good contact tracing you
know yes we are going to see
00:12:03
a spike in cases and suffering and he was
really pushed on what that means for the
00:12:08
economy and we keep hearing this
choice that may or may not be
00:12:13
a realistic one between opening the economy
versus public health you know there's
00:12:18
a there's a solid criticism
to be made that's
00:12:20
a false choice to begin with but right
now that is the narrative that's being
00:12:24
discussed because the economy is is
struggling mightily right now and people are
00:12:30
also stir crazy and so you mentioned the
White House is testing regime but in many
00:12:36
ways that's sort of being used
probably as an example and there's
00:12:41
a solid argument to be made that this is
00:12:43
a false choice between public health and
reopening economy but there is a at least
00:12:50
a correlation between some of the economic
you know trauma we're experiencing and
00:12:56
the isolation the lockdowns the social
distancing and all of these new restrictions
00:13:01
but individuals states communities and the
federal government many ways are having
00:13:06
to make this choice and I think what Dr
Fauci is pointing out is that we are not
00:13:11
going to be able to get solid control
of this pandemic without the widespread
00:13:16
testing without the contact try. Saying
without some of these other measures that
00:13:22
the health officials have laid out and there
just does not seem to be the political
00:13:26
will coming out of the White House or in
many cases coming out of the states to do
00:13:30
that and so what you have now is while
Congress is working on separately the House
00:13:36
and Senate then next ideas for another
round of stimulus there does seem to be of
00:13:41
a bit a bit of
00:13:41
a wait and see approach Mitch McConnell
in the Senate wants to see what happens
00:13:47
when these states reopen to see how much
more stimulus and what kind is needed
00:13:51
Speaker Pelosi even said the other day the
House speaker Nancy Pelosi says that she
00:13:55
doesn't really have the data yet to see
what the stimulus funding thus far has
00:14:00
really done and whether or not it's been
00:14:01
a boost to the economy
and you know there's
00:14:03
a whole lot of unknowns when it comes
to the economy and really still
00:14:08
a lot of unknowns when it comes to the
health pandemic so there's no clear road map
00:14:12
here obviously and you've got Dr kind of
erring on the side of caution here but
00:14:18
then as Kimberly has pointed out the economic
pain is quite severe the latest batch
00:14:24
of people filing for unemployment claims
about 3000000 more in the past week so
00:14:31
that's about 36000000 Americans I believe
who have now filed for unemployment so
00:14:37
the pain is getting worse and yet we don't
quite have the political will it seems
00:14:43
Tom to really do anything until we figure
out well just how effective has this aide
00:14:48
been so far you describe that as
00:14:50
a conundrum that sounds exactly
what it's like right but it's
00:14:54
a dangerous game those who are portraying
the reopening replying they're basically
00:14:59
saying let's see how this go and sleep
those and see what happens to the numbers
00:15:03
we're already traces of the virus are
going up in many of the states that have
00:15:08
begun opening up personally at least and
they're also evidence that in certain
00:15:15
parts of the country in the Midwest in
the West that. I've not had much of
00:15:20
incidences of suddenly their cases and the
doctors in the specialist would say well
00:15:25
that's because those states have begun
relaxing the social distancing for lexing
00:15:30
rules and we will have to
see even the president
00:15:34
a few days ago said he disagrees with Dr
fountain on the question of whether you
00:15:39
reopen schools to son Chris and want schools
reopened with one cabbie I present is
00:15:46
saying well if you're a teacher or
00:15:48
a professor more over 60 years all
maybe you want to send it off for
00:15:52
a while which will break is the
question of the year if you're
00:15:55
a worker anywhere over 60 or 65 years old
should you be going back to work and
00:16:02
what is the message that incentive of the
businesses trying to fuel figure out
00:16:07
whether you should come back to work
or not problem is I think we would be
00:16:11
addressing this a little differently
in the next presidential election were
00:16:15
a year and instead of 5 months
away this November let's pause for
00:16:19
a short break more issues
in the news in just
00:16:22
a moment issues in the news is coming
to you from the Voice of America in
00:16:26
Washington d.c.
00:16:27
It like to download the program it's free
on i Tunes Just click on the i Tunes tab
00:16:33
on v.o.a. Is website at v.o.a.
00:16:37
News dot com Now back to our panel via Skype
Kimberly Adams she's the correspondent
00:16:44
for Marketplace She's joining us from
St Louis Missouri and Tom De Frank is
00:16:49
contributing editor to National Journal
Kimberly you know we've been talking about
00:16:55
the United States here which is sadly the
epicenter of this crisis but obviously
00:17:01
this virus is all over the world in India
Prime Minister bodie plans to spend the
00:17:07
equivalent of about a
quarter of a trillion u.s.
00:17:10
Dollars to help India's economy and there
are warnings that hospitals in Africa
00:17:16
could be overwhelmed as the virus. Spreads
there your thoughts on that you know
00:17:22
it's going to be to put it quite bluntly
terrifying to see how this disease spreads
00:17:28
in places like India and in parts of
sub-Saharan Africa in particular where you
00:17:33
really do have people living in very densely
populated cities in densely populated
00:17:39
areas and where you know just household
incomes don't make it quite as easily for
00:17:45
people to space out and give themselves
00:17:48
a break or even to necessarily purchase
their own homemade protective gear it's
00:17:53
going to look very different than it has
in Europe and in the United States where
00:17:59
for all of the flaws we do have more
economic resources to throw at this if we so
00:18:04
choose to do that also this is coming at
the same time that you know the night it
00:18:09
states is withholding some funding from
the World Health Organization which has
00:18:13
been underfunded in recent years and many
of the groups that typically might step
00:18:19
in to help with these types of things aren't
necessarily in the best position to do
00:18:23
so think about you know what happened
during the bola outbreak in West Africa you
00:18:29
know some years ago you had you know sort
of this global response coming together
00:18:34
to go in and try to come up with the cure
I don't know that we're going to see the
00:18:40
same organized global outreach to go to
places where this pandemic might really
00:18:46
pick up steam in the way that you did then
because everyone is worried about their
00:18:50
own outbreak and probably looking
00:18:52
a bit more insular it's ancillary to that
there's been reports that all kinds of
00:18:58
nonprofit organizations the kinds that
you just explained who would normally be
00:19:03
assisting in part 3rd world the crisis
like this they are running out of cash and
00:19:09
they're wondering if they've been they will
survive so any attempts that they could
00:19:14
make to respond are going to be one of the
money right because you also. I have the
00:19:19
donor base eroding
00:19:21
a little bit sure you have you know these
major film topic organizations and big
00:19:26
funders like Bill Gates just pouring money
into these efforts but you know he's
00:19:31
looking at trying to find
00:19:33
a cure or it is to speed up the response
that he's asking other billionaires to
00:19:39
added If you think about sort of the regular
everyday donors to states u.n.h.c.r.
00:19:45
Or to the Red Cross or to Mercy
Corps or something like that
00:19:49
a lot of these are just
regular people who might give
00:19:53
a little bit of money some months well
when you've got nearing 20 percent
00:19:56
unemployment other people having their
hours cut back in the United States and
00:20:01
general economic fear of what's coming
next that where you know headed into or
00:20:06
already in a recession of an
unknown duration people are
00:20:10
a lot more hesitant to donate to these
charitable causes and if they are donating
00:20:14
to charity it's often in their own
communities where they concede the pain
00:20:18
happening right in front of them as well
let's move on there are things going on
00:20:23
beyond coronavirus here
in America for example
00:20:26
a federal judge is moving to block efforts
by the tribe administration to drop the
00:20:32
case against former national security
advisor Michael Flynn flim is
00:20:37
a retired general who pled
guilty to lying to the f.b.i.
00:20:42
Tom what did he lie about specifically he
lied about contacts that he had with the
00:20:49
so here. Yes Leon over
00:20:52
a period of several weeks mainly after
the Republican convention and 2016 and
00:20:58
during the during the presidential
transition between Obama and Trump between
00:21:04
November 26th the new and January 17th he
was 20 or that's what he was accused of
00:21:10
lying about and he pleaded guilty to that
as you pointed out General when I believe
00:21:17
was the shortest tenure. National security
advisor ever he was he was he lasted for
00:21:23
24 days and he was fired by President trial
for allegedly lying to Vice President
00:21:30
Mike Pence about these contacts he had
with the Russian ambassador and the
00:21:35
allegation was that he was saying don't worry
about sanctions between a not the u.s.
00:21:41
And Russia we're going to take
00:21:42
a look at that as soon as candidate Trump
is been sworn in as its president and you
00:21:47
know he allegedly lied about that in again
he pleaded guilty to doing that but
00:21:52
since then he changed lawyers in his new
lawyer so you can be this and you've got
00:21:58
friends of the White House and the essence
in so he has tried to withdraw his
00:22:02
guilty plea and meantime Attorney General.
Is asked the courts to dismiss the
00:22:09
charges against him on the grounds that
they weren't relevant as you can imagine
00:22:13
Paul this is a this is caused quite
00:22:15
a legal firestorm and judicial circles
is kind of an old phrase here that it's
00:22:22
not
00:22:22
a crime it's the cover up and Flynn was fired
for lying in other words trying to cover
00:22:29
up cover up what he did but some people
have said well why is it so one usual or
00:22:35
incoming national security adviser to talk
to the bastard or another country it's
00:22:42
not unusual it's done all the time the
difference here was when he was asked about
00:22:47
his contacts he lied about them the vice
president pronounced which is what got him
00:22:52
fired and then when the f.b.i.
Started investigating o.
00:22:56
Of this whole subject of alleged Russian
help with the Trump campaign the f.b.i.
00:23:02
Interviewed General Flynn and that was
when he was later indicted in religion
00:23:09
lying to the f.b.i.
00:23:10
Which is which is
00:23:12
a crime also here in Washington America's
highest court the Supreme Court is
00:23:18
weighing whether. Congress can actually
force President Trump to turn over his
00:23:24
financial records this is
00:23:25
a big deal because it's been alleged that
President Trump's financial records his
00:23:31
tax returns and show forth may contain
secrets about his financial dealings where
00:23:37
he gets his money and so forth that he
would prefer Americans not know about he's
00:23:44
not revealed them for several years here
can't believe what where is this case
00:23:50
going to go in your view you know it was
very interesting is well 1st it should be
00:23:54
said that we're in unprecedented times with
the Supreme Court in that they're doing
00:23:59
their oral arguments remotely as many of
us are working remotely and so people are
00:24:04
able to listen to these oral arguments
before the Supreme Court live as they're
00:24:08
happening which is really unusual
but it gives me unique insights
00:24:12
a little bit more quickly than we might
normally have them the court is really
00:24:15
seems to be separating out these 2 different
ways that lawyers are trying to get at
00:24:20
the president's financial records one way
is that Congress Democrats in Congress
00:24:26
want to look at them and and the court is
really challenging some of the justices
00:24:31
are really challenging you know how do you
draw that line between sort of political
00:24:37
harassment almost of an opposing party's
leader and sort of searching out records
00:24:43
for that reason verses you know the state
of New York that actually has sort of
00:24:48
a criminal investigation ongoing and then
asking for the president trumps financial
00:24:54
records as part of those proceedings
because the court does seem to be
00:24:58
a bit more amenable to the
idea that yes if you're
00:25:01
a prosecutor and you're
looking for evidence in
00:25:04
a criminal trial that's one thing but if
you're Congress and you're in the opposing
00:25:09
party and this is just an investigation
that you think might win you some political
00:25:14
points or maybe it's just good information
to have that's different. And you can
00:25:19
really kind of hear the court trying to
suss out where these boundaries should be
00:25:24
because the Supreme Court the
United States when they make
00:25:27
a decision it's not just a
decision in that case it sets
00:25:31
a precedent for how courts below them and
potentially future supreme courts will
00:25:37
deal with similar cases in the future
you know Tom it seems to me that the
00:25:41
president always calls thinks like this
00:25:44
a witch hunt that's one of his favorite
phrases that he applies to all sorts of
00:25:49
things but if this is a witch hunt and
00:25:52
a hoax and he says he has nothing to hide
then why doesn't he just release his
00:25:56
records and let people see for themselves
you know Paul that's one of the early
00:26:01
lessons I got as
00:26:02
a young reporter covering Watergate for
Newsweek magazine many years ago one of the
00:26:07
cardinal rule of the political damage
control seems to be if you don't have
00:26:12
anything to hide why behave
like you do and there's been
00:26:14
a lots of presidents and hooting Bill
Clinton and Hillary Clinton was not
00:26:19
a president but the Clintons always behaves
often like we had something to hide
00:26:23
whether they did or not and that then I
think you know this is the problem here to
00:26:27
person trump the Supreme Court
is clearly torn this is
00:26:31
a political year and they will
make a ruling they have to make
00:26:34
a ruling they will make
00:26:35
a ruling in June before they adjourn this
term of the court and that will be before
00:26:40
the election so I think that's to bring
Bush being even more careful and I'm not
00:26:45
a scholar
00:26:45
a legal scholar I'm guessing the Supreme
Court is going to reject the notion of the
00:26:50
trial lawyers it is
00:26:51
a president one has absolute immunity
from some war criminal proceedings period
00:26:58
end of conversation the prison basically
is on going and I think they're going to
00:27:03
throw that part of it out but them
00:27:06
a question of its cover he says where is
the balance and I suspect they will try to
00:27:11
find
00:27:11
a balance in this hottest of hot potatoes in
any active political election year they're
00:27:18
going to try to split. The difference here
somehow and it will be fascinating to
00:27:21
see the how they do that we even have to
somehow they determine that Congress can
00:27:27
subpoena the president to turn over these
records but that certainly doesn't mean
00:27:32
that the president will do that if we
when fact may be kind of just going down
00:27:37
a blind alley here and no matter what they
rule nothing could happen between now
00:27:42
and November is that
00:27:43
a reasonable assessment Kimberly Well I
think we've had so many unprecedented
00:27:49
incidents in this presidency it be hard to
predict what the president will or will
00:27:53
not do at this point however I think it's
worth noting that one of the ways lawyers
00:27:59
especially in New York have tried to get
at the president's records is by going to
00:28:04
his banks and asking for tax documents and
other financial documents in the bank so
00:28:08
even if the president of
the United States rejects
00:28:12
a Supreme Court ruling that would require
him to turn over his tax returns which I
00:28:18
honestly I'm also not
00:28:19
a judicial scholar I have no idea what
would happen and I don't think that major
00:28:25
banks would be willing to do the same think
well that's all the time we have for
00:28:29
this week Eric thanks to Kimberly Adams
correspondence school for Marketplace and
00:28:34
Tom De Frank he's contributing editor to
National Journal this program is produced
00:28:40
by the Voice of America I'm Paul Brandis
of the West Wing reports down John John
00:28:45
USA Today thanks very much for listening.
00:29:18
From video way Press Conference USA
spirit your host Carol Castillo.
00:29:26
Welcome to Press Conference USA on The
Voice of America joining me on the program
00:29:31
is v.o.a.
00:29:32
International broadcaster and current affairs
producer Kim Lewis our topic on this
00:29:37
edition of the program how did the very
different lives and characters of us civil
00:29:41
rights leaders Malcolm x.
00:29:43
And Reverend Martin Luther King Jr intersect
an overlap despite their contrasting
00:29:48
philosophies and tactics were guarding
racial inequality did they have more in
00:29:53
common than we think our guest on this
edition of the program will shed light on
00:29:57
that very conundrum Peniel Joseph is
author of the recently published book The
00:30:03
Sword and the shield the
revolutionary lives of Malcolm x.
00:30:07
And Martin Luther King Jr Joseph asserts
in his book that notwithstanding their
00:30:11
very different family histories religious
affiliations and class backgrounds
00:30:16
Malcolm x.
00:30:17
And Martin Luther King inspired each other
throughout their adult lives according
00:30:22
to Joseph's quote Malcolm was
00:30:24
a political renegade unafraid to
identify racial justice in America as
00:30:30
a systemic illness that required nothing
less than the radical transformation of
00:30:34
the political and racial status
quo close quote Malcolm x.
00:30:38
Championed black pride black power and
decried white institutions and citizens for
00:30:44
what he called historic and contemporary
racial crimes close quote In contrast Dr
00:30:50
Martin Luther King is best known for his
philosophy of nonviolence as the foremost
00:30:55
leader of the civil rights movement in
America Dr Martin Luther King chose the
00:30:59
tactic of nonviolence as the most
effective tool in fighting against
00:31:03
institutionalized racial segregation
discrimination and inequality Peniel Joseph
00:31:09
Our guest is the Barbara Jordan chair in
ethics and political values at the l.b.j.
00:31:14
School of Public Affairs and professor
of his. And the founding director of the
00:31:18
Center for the Study of Race and democracy
at the University of Texas at Austin he
00:31:24
has written several books on African-American
history including Dark Days Bright
00:31:29
Nights from black power to
Barack Obama and Stokely
00:31:33
a life about the West Indian born civil
rights activist Stokely Carmichael among
00:31:39
several other books well author and Professor
Penny of Joseph joins us via Skype as
00:31:45
we all continue to practice social
distancing measures due to the coronavirus
00:31:49
pandemic Peniel Joseph welcome to the
program thank you so much for having me and
00:31:54
I'm delighted to welcome my colleague
international broadcaster and current affairs
00:31:58
producer Kim Lewis very happy to be here
so Peniel Joseph my 1st question to you is
00:32:03
what prompted you to write this book and
find these points of convergence between
00:32:08
these very 2 different civil rights leaders
Well I've really been studying civil
00:32:12
rights movement and African-American history
my whole life and I've written several
00:32:17
previous books like you mentioned about
civil rights black power social justice and
00:32:22
the 1950 s. And 1960 s.
00:32:24
. About Barack Obama and his connection
to those movements as well so
00:32:29
a lot of ways during that search I've done
over the years and decades now gave me
00:32:35
a really big interest into
learning more about Malcolm x.
00:32:40
And Dr King and the deeper I did the research
the more I saw the convergence rather
00:32:45
than divergence so because in
your book you describe m.l.k.
00:32:50
Martin Luther King as more of the
nonviolent insider you know he promulgated
00:32:54
movement of nonviolence in the face of
racial inequality and you characterize
00:32:58
Malcolm as the outsider he is known
as by any means necessary type of
00:33:03
a political renegade but you say in the
end that their relationship defied the
00:33:07
myths about their politics and activism
how so well both in East political icon
00:33:14
leaders they evolve over time and I
think the nature. Sure of the book it's
00:33:17
a duel by adversity so it lets you really
compare and contrast and see their
00:33:22
intersections and by side the 1st couple
chapters are by graphical and then you
00:33:27
really get into their political careers and
you look at them the same week the same
00:33:31
year the same month and the way in which
they crisscross really the entire world
00:33:36
talking about social justice so King's
notion of what I call radical black
00:33:41
citizenship over time converges with
Malcolm's notion of what I call rap black
00:33:46
dignity and Malcolm is really representative
of the 3rd World and this idea of this
00:33:53
titanic struggle between the global north
and global south in the context of the
00:33:57
postwar period the way in which billions
of people indigenously around the world
00:34:02
were asserting their freedom to think about
the 1955 Bandung Afro-Asian conference
00:34:08
the Nonaligned Movement anti-colonial
struggles in Africa really the larger 3rd
00:34:14
world and the Caribbean Malcolm is
representing that group including
00:34:19
African-Americans in United States in
making this argument for radical black
00:34:23
dignity by which he means the end to racial
violence and racial oppression that's
00:34:29
happening globally Dr King is talking about
something similar but with different
00:34:34
points of emphasis King talks about radical
black citizenship King is preaching
00:34:38
a philosophy a beloved community
00:34:41
a community free of racial oppression free
of economic injustice but he says that
00:34:46
citizenship is not just the freedom from
racial segregation and Jim Crow but
00:34:51
citizenship is
00:34:52
a guaranteed living wage its decent housing
is racially integrated public schools
00:34:57
and neighborhoods if the end of poverty
and also the end of war that's what he
00:35:02
argues that over time even
if they start out with
00:35:05
a lot of attention they come to see that
you really need both you need radical
00:35:11
dignity and radical citizenship globally
for social change to happen and we. The
00:35:17
evolution of their careers really by 963
you're going to see some real major
00:35:22
overlap between the 2 of them that are
just up in your research when you were
00:35:27
researching the childhoods of Malcolm x.
00:35:30
And Martin Luther King Jr What did you
find in their childhoods that were some
00:35:35
potential factors that made them the men
that they collect today they're very much
00:35:40
a contrast thing childhood's
of course Malcolm x.
00:35:43
His father is murdered by white supremacists
in Lansing Michigan in 1931 when
00:35:50
Malcolm little is only 6 years old
his mother is institutionalizing
00:35:54
a psychiatric facility really most of
Malcolm's entire life so his family is
00:36:00
fractured and his family had been black
nationalist they had been Pan African as
00:36:05
they had been followers of Marcus Garvey
was to Jamaican and African as founder of
00:36:10
the Universal Negro Improvement Association
so Malcolm has harsh childhood he grows
00:36:16
up in both Omaha Nebraska and Lansing
Michigan but by the time he's 15 he leaves
00:36:21
foster care he's 15 years old he's already
well over 6 feet he's going to grow into
00:36:26
a 6 foot 3 he goes to see
his half sister Elam
00:36:31
a college in Boston and he lives in the
Roxbury section of Boston so racial trauma
00:36:36
scars absolutely scars Malcolm x.
00:36:38
Martin Luther King Jr has
00:36:40
a different upbringing completely he is
raised along Sweet Auburn Avenue really
00:36:46
assigning the prince of the black upper
middle class is Father Martin Luther King
00:36:51
Sr is the head pastor of Ebenezer Baptist
Church were the most influential black
00:36:55
churches in the United States in Atlanta
and his mother is coming from generations
00:37:00
of African-Americans who have
been at least his father was
00:37:03
a sharecropper and the son of
00:37:04
a sharecropper but on and on his mom's
side he's an elite and what we see with Dr
00:37:08
King is that he gets the best education he
goes to Morehouse College at the age of
00:37:13
15 but both of them face racism and one
of the interesting. The anecdotes that I
00:37:17
tell in the book is the way in which they
both have vivid memories of 1939 and
00:37:23
seeing Gone With The Wind and seeing the
film Gone With The Wind scars both that Dr
00:37:28
King talks about how done with the wind
premiered in Atlanta and he remembers how
00:37:34
many people came out to see it but when
he saw it he found all the racism and the
00:37:39
way in which black people are portrayed
in their sepia toned film about racial
00:37:44
slavery found it very disconcerting
Malcolm says he saw in
00:37:48
a theater in Mason Michigan and he says
one Butterfly McQueen group plays one of
00:37:53
the in slave women who's constantly
being paraded by Vivian lay that white
00:37:58
protagonist he says one Butterfly McQueen
will interact I almost crawl under my
00:38:02
feet so he's humiliated by Gone With The
Wind so they both face racism and racial
00:38:06
segregation but certainly Dr King sees
00:38:09
a lot of black figures both men and women
who become role models for him in Atlanta
00:38:15
and education having that access becomes
key being part of the black church and
00:38:20
these institutions Morehouse College
historically black school Malcolm really finds
00:38:26
his role models initially on the streets
of Roxbury in Boston Massachusetts and
00:38:31
also Harlem and Malcolm is going to end up
in prison from 1946 to 1952 at the very
00:38:37
moment that Dr King is at Morehouse
College and Crozier Theological Seminary
00:38:42
Malcolm x.
00:38:43
Is in prison at 3 different prisons Norfolk
State Concord reformatory and Charles
00:38:49
Town Massachusetts and he's going to find
his role models within the context of the
00:38:55
Honorable Elijah Muhammad and the
Nation of Islam and Malcolm is
00:38:58
a prison organizer and so Malcolm's
political career really starts around
00:39:03
948-4950 is
00:39:06
a prison organizer and continues all the
way to his death in 1965 well Dr Jones of
00:39:11
what is it about the Nation of Islam that
while he was in prison that drove him to
00:39:16
this why. Legend compared to all of the
other religions that he would have been
00:39:20
exposed to in prison this was the one
that he was drawn to the most as is many
00:39:25
other especially African-American men
who want presell What is it about that
00:39:29
religion while their religion calls for
self-determination it grows out of Darby
00:39:35
ism and Marcus Garvey as you and I
00:39:37
a it provided now commit chance to both
heal his fractured family and also
00:39:43
a chance to find out about his own racial
identity so we think about the Nation of
00:39:47
Islam of the Nation of Islam there's something
both radical and conservative about
00:39:52
the Nation of Islam this mossy conservatism
is the fact that the nation is very
00:39:56
patriarchal and his organization Women are
supposed to be caretakers and heads of
00:40:02
the family men are
supposed to really assume
00:40:05
a kind of black patriarchy that they've
been disallowed from assuming because of
00:40:10
white supremacy racial slavery and racial
violence so it's very appealing the
00:40:14
Nation of Islam to a black
young man like Malcolm x.
00:40:17
Who's 20 years old when he enters prison
to try to reclaim that identity has been
00:40:22
lost and really claim
00:40:24
a measure of dignity as well Malcolm
graduated from the 8th grade and never
00:40:29
completes formal education but becomes
this brilliant speaker and social activist
00:40:35
and if the Nation of Islam
that really provides
00:40:37
a path for him to study black history to
start thinking about social change and
00:40:43
social transformation in
00:40:44
a systemic and really global way you know
the Nation of Islam introduces him to
00:40:49
African history and Islamic history and the
history of the world he starts reading
00:40:55
Shakespeare in the history
of Europe so it's
00:40:57
a very interesting and effective tool
for him to empower himself through
00:41:03
a religion that's both sectarian but also
very secular Malcolm's going to use their
00:41:08
organization to get into and try to change
the political landscape of both the
00:41:12
United States and the
entire world there is
00:41:14
a difference however right between
obviously. The Nation of Islam and then
00:41:18
mainstream Islam I think it's important
to make that distinction yesterday the
00:41:22
Nation of Islam was
00:41:24
a very idiosyncratic and very unique
practice and offshoot. Shaped it was the
00:41:30
Islamic faith as considerate and taught
that both the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and
00:41:35
w
00:41:36
d far too had been who had been the founder
of the group that disappeared in the 1930
00:41:41
s. Detroit so it's
00:41:42
a group that's coming out of the Great
Depression and has its own mythology about
00:41:46
race relations the creation of white supremacy
and what black people need to do to
00:41:52
support themselves and build parallel
institutions and eventually Malcolm by 964
00:42:00
is going to become an orthodox Muslim after
taking the pilgrimage to Mecca in the
00:42:05
spring of 1064 you're listening to Press
Conference USA on The Voice of America our
00:42:11
guest is Joseph author of the recently
published book The Sword in the shield the
00:42:16
revolutionary lives of Malcolm x.
00:42:19
And Martin Luther King Jr And we're coming
to you via Skype as we all continue to
00:42:24
practice social distancing due to the
coronavirus pandemic I'm Carol Casti l.
00:42:29
Along with v.o.a.
00:42:30
International broadcaster and our current
affairs producer Kim Lewis this is
00:42:34
a reminder that our press conference USA
podcast is available for free download on
00:42:39
our website at v.o.a.
News dot com slash p.c.
00:42:42
USA You may also follow us on Twitter or
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00:42:47
the l. The way well here's
00:42:48
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00:42:55
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00:43:00
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forward to hearing from you more than ever
00:43:09
as we all face the pen Demick please tell
us how you're doing well back to our
00:43:13
special guest Peniel Joseph author of the
sword and the shield revolution. Larry
00:43:17
lives of Malcolm x. And Martin Luther King
Jr We were just talking about Malcolm x.
00:43:21
And the Nation of Islam before the break
and you know Joseph let's go back to these
00:43:25
2 icons of the civil rights movement they
were contemporaries that they developed
00:43:29
any type of friendship or relationship
throughout their lives and as they pursued
00:43:34
their very different tactics to achieve
racial equality did they cross paths while
00:43:40
back they did but not in the way most
people think about the development of
00:43:44
relationships so they met one time in
person March 26th 1964 while the u.s.
00:43:50
Senate was filibustering and I 964 Civil
Rights Act that's eventually passed on
00:43:55
July 2nd and Dr King is holding
00:43:57
a press conference knocking next listens
to the press conference in the back of
00:44:01
a room on a couch in the u.s.
00:44:03
Senate and when they leave they run into
each other they shake each other's hands
00:44:07
they have small talk and their surrogates
make plans for them to meet again but
00:44:12
they never physically meet again in close
proximity like that again although
00:44:17
Malcolm actually does listen to Dr King
Jeb used speech in Harlem later that year
00:44:23
December 17th after Dr King has been awarded
the Nobel Peace Prize and now going to
00:44:28
sitting next to n.d.
00:44:29
Young who is one of King's lieutenants
Ambassador Andrew Young who later becomes
00:44:34
mayor of Atlanta and the United Nations
ambassador and what we think about their
00:44:38
relationship they become each other's
alter egos in the sense that they're
00:44:43
constantly listening to the other's speeches
and organizing and reacting Malcolm
00:44:50
famously calls at times Dr King in the
early sixty's especially an Uncle Tom
00:44:55
a race traitor he calls
the March on Washington
00:44:57
a forest on Washington King speaks out
against Malcolm and says that black
00:45:02
supremacy system bad is white supremacist
and this is keeping in line with the
00:45:06
mythology of the Nation
of Islam it's sort of
00:45:08
a reverse Klu Klux Klan that happens
after the 1959 Mike Wallace documentary
00:45:14
appears in the summer of $159.00 the hate
that. They produced so at 1st they're
00:45:19
very adversarial there's
00:45:21
a lot of tension and really what I argue
in the sword in the shield is that
00:45:26
Birmingham in 1963
really helps them set on
00:45:30
a convergent pathway
because Birmingham becomes
00:45:33
a school overall story of white violence
against peaceful demonstrators I think
00:45:38
sometimes we think that some 1965 but it's
not it's really Birmingham Alabama 963
00:45:45
the centennial of the Mensa patient
proclamation is the year everything changes in
00:45:49
the United States over the irony is that
there is absolutely no civil rights
00:45:53
legislation passed in $163.00 but all the
subsequent civil rights legislation that
00:45:59
is passed in America is because of the Year
963 and I enjoyed in your book when you
00:46:05
said the James Baldwin the iconic
literary figure who knew both m.l.k.
00:46:10
Martin Luther King and Malcolm x.
00:46:12
He said that they increasingly shared
00:46:14
a revolutionary political vision that bound
them together less as adversaries than
00:46:19
his colleagues whose initial
conflict gave way to
00:46:22
a shared destiny and of course we want to
get you to talk more about that shared
00:46:27
destiny but 1st let's just talk about
how each one of them contributed to the
00:46:31
Struggle for Racial Equality and black
dignity what would you say is the greatest
00:46:36
single contribution to the civil
rights movement by Malcolm x.
00:46:39
What is his lasting legacy
Well certainly Malcolm x.
00:46:43
And lasting legacy is twofold he's the
biggest global critic of white supremacy and
00:46:48
racial imperialism in the 2nd half of the
20th century and he's also the biggest
00:46:54
articulator of
00:46:56
a positive vision of black and African
identity around the world so those things
00:47:01
cannot be overstated So they're not connected
to policy in an over but they really
00:47:08
become institutionalized in part of policy
only think about the movement for black
00:47:12
studies and the way in which
Negroes become alack and after
00:47:16
a. American and African because of Malcolm
X.'s political activism and that's
00:47:21
globally across the world within about Dr
King his biggest contribution is going to
00:47:27
be globally to reimagining the idea
of African American citizenship and
00:47:33
really reimagining the idea of the world
house the entire world being part of
00:47:39
a community there could be free of racial
violence free of poverty free of war and
00:47:44
strife so King's notion of
00:47:47
a beloved community that people have to
struggle for is going to be his biggest
00:47:52
legacy and really when we think about
nonviolence we never add that Dr King talked
00:47:56
about nonviolent civil disobedience so
that's what makes Dr King connected to
00:48:01
Gandhi and traditions and revolutionary
traditions and the last 2 chapters of this
00:48:06
book are called the radical King and the
revolutionary King because he really takes
00:48:09
up Malcolm X.'s mantle of being this bold
truth teller and even though he never was
00:48:15
an advocate of violence his advocacy of
civil disobedience radical revolutionary
00:48:20
civil disobedience even leading up to the
poor people's campaign is really going to
00:48:24
contribute to his assassination and really
contribute to the fall in popularity
00:48:30
because King is using nonviolence in
00:48:32
a very very cold war so muscular and
revolutionary way and Peniel Joseph would you
00:48:37
say the converse Lee Malcolm x.
00:48:40
Particularly after his visit in 1064 after
the Hodge is it fair to say that he
00:48:45
began to drop his more radical postures
and then diverge from the more dogmatic
00:48:51
Nation of Islam movement and become maybe
closer to Martin Luther King he didn't
00:48:56
see Martin Luther King is weak as he did
earlier but rather came closer to his
00:49:01
positions I'd say that Malcolm's positions
broaden even before he leaves the Nation
00:49:06
of Islam I often tell people that
when you think about joining
00:49:09
a religion it's like joining
00:49:11
a political party where in the United States
the parties are Democrat Republican in
00:49:15
other countries they're called differ.
Things but you never agree entirely with the
00:49:19
party you use the party or religion to
leverage an amplifier own voice you might
00:49:24
want to be
00:49:25
a missionary and help poor people so you're
part of this group now come with the
00:49:29
same way Malcolm's
00:49:30
a brilliant intellectual and sometimes
even when you're saying the dogmatic party
00:49:35
line you're only saying it because you're
part of this political or religious group
00:49:40
and privately you feel differently so I
think that even as early as the early 1960
00:49:46
s.
00:49:46
He's converging with King's notion of radical
black citizenship I think it takes the
00:49:51
complete break from the Nation of Islam for
him to publicly state this in 1964 but
00:49:57
as early as 1963 and the war Malcolm is
in marches and in demonstrations even
00:50:04
though the Honorable Elijah Muhammad tells
Muslims not to do that who are part of
00:50:09
the Nation of Islam Malcolm meets with Fidel
Castro and I have that in the book in
00:50:13
September 1960 when reporters asked
00:50:16
a lot of Mohamad what does he think about
the meeting like mom and says If I had
00:50:21
known he was going to meet the dog Castro
I would have prevented it which tells us
00:50:24
that Malcolm didn't tell the top of the
lodge mommy he was going to meet with Fidel
00:50:29
Castro he just went and met with him so
Malcolm Is this global figure who is very
00:50:34
much interested in organizing the Nation
of Islam not just around religion and
00:50:40
spiritual faith but around secular politics
and that's what gets him into trouble
00:50:45
so we think about $64.65 the hodge certainly
broadens his mind but I wouldn't say
00:50:51
he becomes
00:50:52
a less radical I say actually becomes
more radical because he starts to realize
00:50:57
that to have radical and revolutionary
transformations doesn't necessarily take
00:51:02
violence violence is not
synonymous with being
00:51:05
a radical or revolutionary I think in his
earlier interation he thought that they
00:51:09
were synonymous I think one of King's
biggest lessons for Malcolm is that you can
00:51:14
bring whether it's America or the world's.
Oppressive powers to their knees through
00:51:19
nonviolent civil disobedience that becomes
part of moral political and social
00:51:25
suasion that leads to anti-racist public
policies and anti-racist institutions just
00:51:31
looking at the world today how relevant
are these 2 men especially to the younger
00:51:37
generation and what qualities of these men
would the younger generation be able to
00:51:42
identify with today I think they're
unbelievably relevant to the world today
00:51:47
especially in the context of a global
pandemic that we are all enduring there
00:51:52
a notion of radical dignity and citizenship
was built through the particular lens
00:51:58
of black struggle but it was very expansive
They're both human rights activist
00:52:03
Malcolm says that the civil
rights movement should be
00:52:05
a human rights movement and Dr King says
that materialism militarism and racism are
00:52:12
the triple threats facing humanity so we
think about contemporary movements whether
00:52:17
they're for black last matter or women's
marches then it isn't rites of immigrants
00:52:22
and Muslims rights of l g b t 2 they all
stand on the shoulders of Malcolm x.
00:52:29
And Martin Luther King Jr And I think the
way in which they tried to reimagine both
00:52:34
American democracy but these ideas of
citizenship and dignity are very very crucial
00:52:39
because when we think about contemporary
movements Dr King's notion of citizenship
00:52:44
is going to be so expansive that's going
to include people who are not American
00:52:48
citizens he thinks that we are all global
citizens and that's why he says he calls
00:52:53
it the world House that includes all of us
and we think about Malcolm this idea of
00:52:57
dignity Malcolm famously says after coming
back from Africa in 19641 of 2 trips he
00:53:03
took that lasted about 24 weeks
when the reporters tell him that
00:53:07
a lot of whites are excited about his seeming
change or transformation saying that
00:53:12
he's seen whites practice Islam and faith
in the Middle East and he thought. It's
00:53:17
that in terms of race relations you can't
have interracial coalitions he says that
00:53:21
until every single black person is accorded
the same treatment there's really not
00:53:26
going to be racial equality and racial
justice so what those 2 give to younger
00:53:32
people is really
00:53:34
a ments political integrity examples of
personal sincerity and really this love of
00:53:40
black people but also this love of poor
people they love underdogs Malcolm tried to
00:53:45
organize black people who were
imprisoned King slept on the floor as
00:53:49
a sharecropper Shaq's in Alabama Mississippi
they were just talking the talk they
00:53:54
really walk the talk and so I think that
lesson of real commitment and the fact
00:54:00
that Malcolm and King evolved they both
broadened their views to converge with the
00:54:05
other by 6768 Dr King is saying black
is beautiful and we need black pride in
00:54:11
something terminations by 964 Malcolm is
saying the ballot or the bullet but he is
00:54:17
for the 1st time saying that voting rights
really matter and that black people need
00:54:21
to organize themselves to get access to
citizenship so they show us how when you're
00:54:27
part of
00:54:27
a social movement you have to be able to
evolve and broaden your view and that
00:54:32
evolution really is very very important
for us now but especially in light of the
00:54:37
Penn Demick that is really uncovered the
depth and breath of racial disparity
00:54:42
around the world Him you have another
question I was just going to say in all of
00:54:47
your research what did you personally find
most fascinating about the 2 men whether
00:54:54
it's something in their private lives
or just being influential civil rights
00:55:00
movement influencers Yeah I did but I found
the most fascinating about each was how
00:55:06
deeply intellectual and can standard their
approaches were these were 2 people who
00:55:12
were constantly reading they were constantly
listening as well as. Talking so they
00:55:17
could both be very attentive listeners
they are constantly expanding their vision
00:55:23
of justice and including
different people n.
00:55:26
They both have blind spots when it came
to gender and sort of gender racism and
00:55:31
sexism and patriarchy Melcombe grows over
time and thinking does as well on this
00:55:36
score Malcolm by 64 is saying that the best
countries even as it in Africa African
00:55:42
women are co-leaders an equal leaders in
organizers and that the black liberation
00:55:47
movement in the United States should follow
that example King doesn't go that far
00:55:52
but he starts to understand and listen
to black women who are welfare rights
00:55:57
organizers who challenge and push him
to to to admit that he doesn't know
00:56:02
everything he doesn't know all these
issues even as he's trying to lead an
00:56:05
anti-poverty campaign black women like
Johnny Tillman and you are Sanders knew the
00:56:11
ins and outs of welfare legislation and
social policy way that he did not so I
00:56:16
think that what's so interesting is how
deeply committed they were wow there are
00:56:22
big thinkers and we think about them we
have to think about them as not just social
00:56:26
movement leaders not just minute they not
just as spokespersons but also as these
00:56:33
public intellectuals are really wrestling
with these ideas of race democracy
00:56:37
citizenship imperialism really globalization
and what King called the World house
00:56:43
and how do you build this beloved community
but also racial slavery I thought one
00:56:48
of the interesting things about them is
that you know the New York Times has
00:56:51
a 161000 project about racial slavery in
democracy from 1619 to the present and
00:56:57
both of them in their speeches Malcolm 1st
name King over time are laser like focus
00:57:04
De Castro by our racial slavery and Jim
Crow racial segregation an American
00:57:11
democracy and really capitalism in imperialism
struggles between the global north
00:57:16
and glow. Will Sal in the 1960 s.
00:57:19
So it's it is amazing to me out deeply
considered they were in terms of they're
00:57:25
both students is the best way to describe
them lifelong students of history of
00:57:30
politics I'm society and they're both
amazing sociologists and anthropologist
00:57:35
because they get along so well with different
people in different settings one of
00:57:40
the interesting tidbits is that Malcolm x.
00:57:42
Had an office at the United Nations he
knew all the Africa and the Middle East
00:57:47
there and
00:57:48
a lot of white diplomats and he had an
office beard throughout most of the 1960 s.
00:57:53
And that's how he introduces Muhammad Ali
to African diplomats that Muhammad Ali is
00:57:58
going to use when he visits Africa in
1964 after being the young heavyweight
00:58:04
youngest heavyweight champion in history
Peniel Joseph is author of the sword in
00:58:09
the shield the revolutionary
lives of Malcolm x.
00:58:12
And Martin Luther King Jr Joseph congratulations
on this fabulous book comparing
00:58:17
the lives of 2 giants of the civil rights
movement who had much more in common than
00:58:23
we previously thought Carol thank you so
much for this Conference USA on The Voice
00:58:28
of America was produced in Washington with
technical assistance from Gary Jaffe and
00:58:32
recount Alayo And joining me on the program
with international broadcaster and
00:58:38
current affairs producer Jim Lewis I'm
Carol Katz the Join us again next week for
00:58:43
another press conference USA
on The Voice of America.
00:00:00
Over governors in easing Kovan 1000
guidelines that prompted 10 u.s.
00:00:04
Senators to probe how sweeping Mr Trump
believes as emergency powers are they want
00:00:09
to see this administration's presidential
emergency action documents these little
00:00:14
known classified documents don't give
00:00:16
a president authority beyond what's in
the Constitution but they outline what
00:00:21
powers
00:00:21
a president believes the Constitution allows
him to exercise during national emergencies
00:00:27
a person who attended
00:00:28
a religious service on Mother's Day in
Northern California has tested positive for
00:00:32
the corona virus possibly exposing it to
more than 180 members of the congregation
00:00:38
County health officials say the church north
of Sacramento chose to open its doors
00:00:43
despite rules banning gatherings of any
size most people with the virus experienced
00:00:48
fever cough and more for up to 3 weeks older
adults and people with existing health
00:00:53
problems can face severe illness including
the manja and even death the safety of
00:00:58
Will hons coronavirus
test centers has become
00:01:00
a hot topic or resident with some concern
that the very act of getting tested could
00:01:05
expose them to the infection
the Chinese city with
00:01:08
a covert 1000 pandemic began has revved up
00:01:11
a massive testing campaign after 1st
cluster infections were confirmed this is
00:01:16
v.o.a.
00:01:16
News. China and South Korea are
said to have consulted Japan about
00:01:23
easing border controls on business
travels to help the Rev revive business
00:01:29
activities the ideal already implemented
between South Korea and China would allow
00:01:34
a fast track entry of business people if
they test negative for the new coronavirus
00:01:39
before depôt departure and after arrival
but Tokyo is cautious about relaxing
00:01:45
border controls at this point due to fears
of another spike in infections as well
00:01:50
as a lack of test kit for
travellers according to
00:01:52
a report Spanish prime minister Petro Senshi
has said that his government will seek
00:01:58
a final 4 week extension to its state
of emergency as daily deaths from the
00:02:03
coronavirus reach
00:02:05
a near 8 week low Spain has largely brought
its outbreak under control however
00:02:09
officials say restrictions
have to remain in place
00:02:12
a while longer as the country begins to
phase out its tough lockdown after pushing
00:02:17
through 4 previous extensions support for
Sanchez's left wing coalition is waning
00:02:22
in parliament while public opposition
is mounting demonstrations against the
00:02:26
government's handling of the health crisis
sprouted up from around Madrid this week
00:02:31
with protesters gathering to bang pots
and pans and chants the International
00:02:37
Olympic Committee said Saturday it would
make decisions about the staging of the
00:02:41
delayed Tokyo Olympic games
at the right time i.o.c.
00:02:45
President Thomas box that with over
00:02:48
a year still to go before the scheduled
opening of the July 23rd 2021 games it
00:02:54
would be hard to give a reliable answer
on how the world might look and the w h
00:02:59
o was instrumental in sharing
technical advice with the i.o.c.
00:03:02
During discussions that led to the postponement
of the games back in March 2 bodies
00:03:07
also signed an agreement Saturday which
advocates health like healthy lifestyles
00:03:12
including physical activity
sport an active recreation as
00:03:16
a tool for health across the globe.
The National Hurricane Center says
00:03:21
a low pressure system just off the coast
of east central Florida has become
00:03:25
a tropical depression and that a
tropical storm watch has been issued for
00:03:29
a portion of North Korea Carolina
meteorologist said Saturday that the storm is
00:03:33
located he said the central Florida coast
Democrats are demanding that the White
00:03:38
House hand over all records related
to President Trump's latest firing of
00:03:42
a federal watchdog this time the State
Department they suggested the secretary of
00:03:47
state might come Peel was responsible for
the firing of what may be what they say
00:03:52
is
00:03:52
a legal act of retaliation the chairman of
the House Foreign Affairs Committee and
00:03:57
the top Democrat of the Senate Foreign
Relations Committee announced their vests
00:04:01
Edition Saturday in
00:04:02
a letter to the administration Mr Trump
said late Friday that he was firing the
00:04:06
Inspector General Steve Linnik an Obama
administration appointee by remote I'm
00:04:11
Tommy deal the only news.
00:04:19
From Washington v.o.a.
00:04:21
Presents issues in the news.
00:04:30
Welcome to issues in the news on brand us
White House reporter or West Wing reports
00:04:36
and columnist for Dow Jones and USA Today
joining me on the panel this week via
00:04:43
Skype are Kimberly Adams she's correspondent
for Marketplace and Tom De Frank he's
00:04:49
contributing editor to National Journal
and here are this week's issues the
00:04:55
coronavirus death toll continues to rise
around the world some 300000 deaths so
00:05:02
far this has countries debate about how
when and even whether to reopen parts of
00:05:09
the economy the global economy continues
to reel from the virus the head of
00:05:14
America's central bank warns that the
downturn could get even worse. Will also
00:05:19
discuss efforts in India Africa and elsewhere
to contain the virus that debate is
00:05:26
fierce here in the United States which now
leads the world in confirmed cases and
00:05:32
deaths that virus by the way has now made
its way into the heart of the White House
00:05:38
also here in America
00:05:40
a federal judge has moved to block efforts
by the Trump administration to drop the
00:05:45
case against former national security
advisor Michael Flynn and America's highest
00:05:51
court the Supreme Court is weighing whether
Congress can force the president to
00:05:56
turn over his financial records Well
let's start with this Corona virus as I
00:06:02
mentioned nearly 4 and a half 1000000
cases worldwide some 300000 that's And
00:06:09
a vaccine still seems months away at best
and yet some countries are taking Clemen
00:06:14
are steps to really open their economies
for example in China where all this began
00:06:20
the big Disney resort in Shanghai is open
and the world's biggest hotel company
00:06:25
Marriott now says the worst may be over
just 2 examples here I can't really let's
00:06:32
start with you this debate over reopening
businesses getting people back to work
00:06:37
perfectly understandable but also understandable
are concerns about people's safety
00:06:42
how do you have
00:06:43
a kind of balance those 2 very real
concerns Well it's really kind of how each
00:06:48
individual person balances those concerns
See cuz businesses can decide to open if
00:06:54
their state decides if they should be
allowed if the federal government loosens
00:06:58
guideline to or really talking about is
the individual concerns that people have
00:07:03
about their own personal safety and what
they may or may not be willing to subject
00:07:08
themselves to now in the United
States of course there is
00:07:11
a political divide on this has been
00:07:13
a lot of research coming out in the last
week or so indicating that how worried you
00:07:19
. About coronavirus really depends on
where you live and honestly what kind of
00:07:24
media you're consuming me personally
when I was in Washington d.c.
00:07:28
Which is where I live everyone is wearing
masks people are doing their social
00:07:32
distancing lots of people are very worried
but I am right now in St Louis Missouri
00:07:37
where many people are wearing masks I'm
seeing lots of people hanging out with each
00:07:42
other businesses are getting ready to
reopen on Monday and people are planning to
00:07:47
go out and it's really it's very different
depending on where you are in America
00:07:52
and what you're thinking about now when it
comes to individual businesses there is
00:07:56
a concern about whether or not businesses
are going to be liable to eat at their
00:08:02
workers getting sick or people getting
sick at their locations and Congress is
00:08:08
looking at that and lawyers are already
talking about that because there have been
00:08:12
a few cases about business liability working
their way through the system you know
00:08:16
Tom leading the charge to reopen is
President Trump but you know there are now
00:08:21
confirmed cases of this buyers in the White
House itself people who are quite close
00:08:28
to the president how can he urge people
to go back to work when even his own
00:08:33
workplace does not appear to
be safe Well it's a bit of
00:08:37
a cannot progress and of course Boehner
you're right about that his his argument
00:08:42
here is if he and his closest associates
are tested every day even if the law must
00:08:48
be invited It's not like France or who are
separated physically hurt the most part
00:08:53
because princes press
secretary came down with
00:08:57
a virus he tested negative for several days
and then tested positive and then when
00:09:02
the president has this
nonsense in the Rose Garden
00:09:04
a few days ago everybody
except it's cell was wearing
00:09:09
a mask but back at the White House the
treatment is almost absolute He is
00:09:14
surrounded by people in the medical unit
here takes care of everybody. Tests
00:09:19
constantly but it raises the question how
can you be how can anyone be confident
00:09:25
that you're going to be safe in the epicenter
of the United States government the
00:09:29
White House just popping up with a handful
of cases and he's been unable to answer
00:09:36
a question that has been put to him
00:09:39
a couple of times now you know everybody
in the White House as you mentioned
00:09:43
there's test taking with you go in and
the president and people around him are
00:09:48
tested constantly and yet it's been said
by his new press secretary that while
00:09:54
testing for Americans on
00:09:56
a widespread basis isn't the word that she
used was nonsensical How is it logical
00:10:02
to do this widespread testing in the White
House but not logical to do it elsewhere
00:10:08
probably because there are fewer number
of individuals that you have to test to
00:10:13
have
00:10:13
a much expanded testing program in the
United States you're going to have to test
00:10:18
millions and millions and millions of people
more or less constantly every day and
00:10:24
that's a lot of people that's
00:10:25
a lot of expense and to be very blunt about
it the testing when you think testing
00:10:30
is warranted or not a lot
more testing will show
00:10:34
a lot more cases of individuals who either
haven't the virus and shown no symptoms
00:10:40
or headed in or now I mean and so all
those numbers will add to the totals and
00:10:45
there are some in the White House who don't
want to risk those sorts of totals I'm
00:10:50
not saying I am not saying the White House
is playing politics here I am saying the
00:10:56
political calculations about testing and
about reopening States there have some
00:11:04
have some validity there are political
calculations and political consequences and
00:11:09
you can't believe otherwise but I mean
time and this is for you I think it
00:11:13
carefully I've Dr Anthony found she is
arguably the best known medical officials.
00:11:19
In the United States certainly highly
respected he is urging caution he testified
00:11:25
before the Senate
00:11:26
a couple of days ago on video
said that opening the economy. To
00:11:33
quoting here he said suffering and death
that could be avoided what do you think of
00:11:39
that you know it's very interesting in that
hearing of she was Dr felt she was very
00:11:44
careful to say he's like look I'm not here
to make economic projections about what
00:11:49
is and isn't good for the economy I'm here
to talk about what's going to happen to
00:11:53
public health and he said you know yes
without widespread testing without isolation
00:11:59
without good contact tracing you
know yes we are going to see
00:12:03
a spike in cases and suffering and he was
really pushed on what that means for the
00:12:08
economy and we keep hearing this
choice that may or may not be
00:12:13
a realistic one between opening the economy
versus public health you know there's
00:12:18
a there's a solid criticism
to be made that's
00:12:20
a false choice to begin with but right
now that is the narrative that's being
00:12:24
discussed because the economy is is
struggling mightily right now and people are
00:12:30
also stir crazy and so you mentioned the
White House is testing regime but in many
00:12:36
ways that's sort of being used
probably as an example and there's
00:12:41
a solid argument to be made that this is
00:12:43
a false choice between public health and
reopening economy but there is a at least
00:12:50
a correlation between some of the economic
you know trauma we're experiencing and
00:12:56
the isolation the lockdowns the social
distancing and all of these new restrictions
00:13:01
but individuals states communities and the
federal government many ways are having
00:13:06
to make this choice and I think what Dr
Fauci is pointing out is that we are not
00:13:11
going to be able to get solid control
of this pandemic without the widespread
00:13:16
testing without the contact try. Saying
without some of these other measures that
00:13:22
the health officials have laid out and there
just does not seem to be the political
00:13:26
will coming out of the White House or in
many cases coming out of the states to do
00:13:30
that and so what you have now is while
Congress is working on separately the House
00:13:36
and Senate then next ideas for another
round of stimulus there does seem to be of
00:13:41
a bit a bit of
00:13:41
a wait and see approach Mitch McConnell
in the Senate wants to see what happens
00:13:47
when these states reopen to see how much
more stimulus and what kind is needed
00:13:51
Speaker Pelosi even said the other day the
House speaker Nancy Pelosi says that she
00:13:55
doesn't really have the data yet to see
what the stimulus funding thus far has
00:14:00
really done and whether or not it's been
00:14:01
a boost to the economy
and you know there's
00:14:03
a whole lot of unknowns when it comes
to the economy and really still
00:14:08
a lot of unknowns when it comes to the
health pandemic so there's no clear road map
00:14:12
here obviously and you've got Dr kind of
erring on the side of caution here but
00:14:18
then as Kimberly has pointed out the economic
pain is quite severe the latest batch
00:14:24
of people filing for unemployment claims
about 3000000 more in the past week so
00:14:31
that's about 36000000 Americans I believe
who have now filed for unemployment so
00:14:37
the pain is getting worse and yet we don't
quite have the political will it seems
00:14:43
Tom to really do anything until we figure
out well just how effective has this aide
00:14:48
been so far you describe that as
00:14:50
a conundrum that sounds exactly
what it's like right but it's
00:14:54
a dangerous game those who are portraying
the reopening replying they're basically
00:14:59
saying let's see how this go and sleep
those and see what happens to the numbers
00:15:03
we're already traces of the virus are
going up in many of the states that have
00:15:08
begun opening up personally at least and
they're also evidence that in certain
00:15:15
parts of the country in the Midwest in
the West that. I've not had much of
00:15:20
incidences of suddenly their cases and the
doctors in the specialist would say well
00:15:25
that's because those states have begun
relaxing the social distancing for lexing
00:15:30
rules and we will have to
see even the president
00:15:34
a few days ago said he disagrees with Dr
fountain on the question of whether you
00:15:39
reopen schools to son Chris and want schools
reopened with one cabbie I present is
00:15:46
saying well if you're a teacher or
00:15:48
a professor more over 60 years all
maybe you want to send it off for
00:15:52
a while which will break is the
question of the year if you're
00:15:55
a worker anywhere over 60 or 65 years old
should you be going back to work and
00:16:02
what is the message that incentive of the
businesses trying to fuel figure out
00:16:07
whether you should come back to work
or not problem is I think we would be
00:16:11
addressing this a little differently
in the next presidential election were
00:16:15
a year and instead of 5 months
away this November let's pause for
00:16:19
a short break more issues
in the news in just
00:16:22
a moment issues in the news is coming
to you from the Voice of America in
00:16:26
Washington d.c.
00:16:27
It like to download the program it's free
on i Tunes Just click on the i Tunes tab
00:16:33
on v.o.a. Is website at v.o.a.
00:16:37
News dot com Now back to our panel via Skype
Kimberly Adams she's the correspondent
00:16:44
for Marketplace She's joining us from
St Louis Missouri and Tom De Frank is
00:16:49
contributing editor to National Journal
Kimberly you know we've been talking about
00:16:55
the United States here which is sadly the
epicenter of this crisis but obviously
00:17:01
this virus is all over the world in India
Prime Minister bodie plans to spend the
00:17:07
equivalent of about a
quarter of a trillion u.s.
00:17:10
Dollars to help India's economy and there
are warnings that hospitals in Africa
00:17:16
could be overwhelmed as the virus. Spreads
there your thoughts on that you know
00:17:22
it's going to be to put it quite bluntly
terrifying to see how this disease spreads
00:17:28
in places like India and in parts of
sub-Saharan Africa in particular where you
00:17:33
really do have people living in very densely
populated cities in densely populated
00:17:39
areas and where you know just household
incomes don't make it quite as easily for
00:17:45
people to space out and give themselves
00:17:48
a break or even to necessarily purchase
their own homemade protective gear it's
00:17:53
going to look very different than it has
in Europe and in the United States where
00:17:59
for all of the flaws we do have more
economic resources to throw at this if we so
00:18:04
choose to do that also this is coming at
the same time that you know the night it
00:18:09
states is withholding some funding from
the World Health Organization which has
00:18:13
been underfunded in recent years and many
of the groups that typically might step
00:18:19
in to help with these types of things aren't
necessarily in the best position to do
00:18:23
so think about you know what happened
during the bola outbreak in West Africa you
00:18:29
know some years ago you had you know sort
of this global response coming together
00:18:34
to go in and try to come up with the cure
I don't know that we're going to see the
00:18:40
same organized global outreach to go to
places where this pandemic might really
00:18:46
pick up steam in the way that you did then
because everyone is worried about their
00:18:50
own outbreak and probably looking
00:18:52
a bit more insular it's ancillary to that
there's been reports that all kinds of
00:18:58
nonprofit organizations the kinds that
you just explained who would normally be
00:19:03
assisting in part 3rd world the crisis
like this they are running out of cash and
00:19:09
they're wondering if they've been they will
survive so any attempts that they could
00:19:14
make to respond are going to be one of the
money right because you also. I have the
00:19:19
donor base eroding
00:19:21
a little bit sure you have you know these
major film topic organizations and big
00:19:26
funders like Bill Gates just pouring money
into these efforts but you know he's
00:19:31
looking at trying to find
00:19:33
a cure or it is to speed up the response
that he's asking other billionaires to
00:19:39
added If you think about sort of the regular
everyday donors to states u.n.h.c.r.
00:19:45
Or to the Red Cross or to Mercy
Corps or something like that
00:19:49
a lot of these are just
regular people who might give
00:19:53
a little bit of money some months well
when you've got nearing 20 percent
00:19:56
unemployment other people having their
hours cut back in the United States and
00:20:01
general economic fear of what's coming
next that where you know headed into or
00:20:06
already in a recession of an
unknown duration people are
00:20:10
a lot more hesitant to donate to these
charitable causes and if they are donating
00:20:14
to charity it's often in their own
communities where they concede the pain
00:20:18
happening right in front of them as well
let's move on there are things going on
00:20:23
beyond coronavirus here
in America for example
00:20:26
a federal judge is moving to block efforts
by the tribe administration to drop the
00:20:32
case against former national security
advisor Michael Flynn flim is
00:20:37
a retired general who pled
guilty to lying to the f.b.i.
00:20:42
Tom what did he lie about specifically he
lied about contacts that he had with the
00:20:49
so here. Yes Leon over
00:20:52
a period of several weeks mainly after
the Republican convention and 2016 and
00:20:58
during the during the presidential
transition between Obama and Trump between
00:21:04
November 26th the new and January 17th he
was 20 or that's what he was accused of
00:21:10
lying about and he pleaded guilty to that
as you pointed out General when I believe
00:21:17
was the shortest tenure. National security
advisor ever he was he was he lasted for
00:21:23
24 days and he was fired by President trial
for allegedly lying to Vice President
00:21:30
Mike Pence about these contacts he had
with the Russian ambassador and the
00:21:35
allegation was that he was saying don't worry
about sanctions between a not the u.s.
00:21:41
And Russia we're going to take
00:21:42
a look at that as soon as candidate Trump
is been sworn in as its president and you
00:21:47
know he allegedly lied about that in again
he pleaded guilty to doing that but
00:21:52
since then he changed lawyers in his new
lawyer so you can be this and you've got
00:21:58
friends of the White House and the essence
in so he has tried to withdraw his
00:22:02
guilty plea and meantime Attorney General.
Is asked the courts to dismiss the
00:22:09
charges against him on the grounds that
they weren't relevant as you can imagine
00:22:13
Paul this is a this is caused quite
00:22:15
a legal firestorm and judicial circles
is kind of an old phrase here that it's
00:22:22
not
00:22:22
a crime it's the cover up and Flynn was fired
for lying in other words trying to cover
00:22:29
up cover up what he did but some people
have said well why is it so one usual or
00:22:35
incoming national security adviser to talk
to the bastard or another country it's
00:22:42
not unusual it's done all the time the
difference here was when he was asked about
00:22:47
his contacts he lied about them the vice
president pronounced which is what got him
00:22:52
fired and then when the f.b.i.
Started investigating o.
00:22:56
Of this whole subject of alleged Russian
help with the Trump campaign the f.b.i.
00:23:02
Interviewed General Flynn and that was
when he was later indicted in religion
00:23:09
lying to the f.b.i.
00:23:10
Which is which is
00:23:12
a crime also here in Washington America's
highest court the Supreme Court is
00:23:18
weighing whether. Congress can actually
force President Trump to turn over his
00:23:24
financial records this is
00:23:25
a big deal because it's been alleged that
President Trump's financial records his
00:23:31
tax returns and show forth may contain
secrets about his financial dealings where
00:23:37
he gets his money and so forth that he
would prefer Americans not know about he's
00:23:44
not revealed them for several years here
can't believe what where is this case
00:23:50
going to go in your view you know it was
very interesting is well 1st it should be
00:23:54
said that we're in unprecedented times with
the Supreme Court in that they're doing
00:23:59
their oral arguments remotely as many of
us are working remotely and so people are
00:24:04
able to listen to these oral arguments
before the Supreme Court live as they're
00:24:08
happening which is really unusual
but it gives me unique insights
00:24:12
a little bit more quickly than we might
normally have them the court is really
00:24:15
seems to be separating out these 2 different
ways that lawyers are trying to get at
00:24:20
the president's financial records one way
is that Congress Democrats in Congress
00:24:26
want to look at them and and the court is
really challenging some of the justices
00:24:31
are really challenging you know how do you
draw that line between sort of political
00:24:37
harassment almost of an opposing party's
leader and sort of searching out records
00:24:43
for that reason verses you know the state
of New York that actually has sort of
00:24:48
a criminal investigation ongoing and then
asking for the president trumps financial
00:24:54
records as part of those proceedings
because the court does seem to be
00:24:58
a bit more amenable to the
idea that yes if you're
00:25:01
a prosecutor and you're
looking for evidence in
00:25:04
a criminal trial that's one thing but if
you're Congress and you're in the opposing
00:25:09
party and this is just an investigation
that you think might win you some political
00:25:14
points or maybe it's just good information
to have that's different. And you can
00:25:19
really kind of hear the court trying to
suss out where these boundaries should be
00:25:24
because the Supreme Court the
United States when they make
00:25:27
a decision it's not just a
decision in that case it sets
00:25:31
a precedent for how courts below them and
potentially future supreme courts will
00:25:37
deal with similar cases in the future
you know Tom it seems to me that the
00:25:41
president always calls thinks like this
00:25:44
a witch hunt that's one of his favorite
phrases that he applies to all sorts of
00:25:49
things but if this is a witch hunt and
00:25:52
a hoax and he says he has nothing to hide
then why doesn't he just release his
00:25:56
records and let people see for themselves
you know Paul that's one of the early
00:26:01
lessons I got as
00:26:02
a young reporter covering Watergate for
Newsweek magazine many years ago one of the
00:26:07
cardinal rule of the political damage
control seems to be if you don't have
00:26:12
anything to hide why behave
like you do and there's been
00:26:14
a lots of presidents and hooting Bill
Clinton and Hillary Clinton was not
00:26:19
a president but the Clintons always behaves
often like we had something to hide
00:26:23
whether they did or not and that then I
think you know this is the problem here to
00:26:27
person trump the Supreme Court
is clearly torn this is
00:26:31
a political year and they will
make a ruling they have to make
00:26:34
a ruling they will make
00:26:35
a ruling in June before they adjourn this
term of the court and that will be before
00:26:40
the election so I think that's to bring
Bush being even more careful and I'm not
00:26:45
a scholar
00:26:45
a legal scholar I'm guessing the Supreme
Court is going to reject the notion of the
00:26:50
trial lawyers it is
00:26:51
a president one has absolute immunity
from some war criminal proceedings period
00:26:58
end of conversation the prison basically
is on going and I think they're going to
00:27:03
throw that part of it out but them
00:27:06
a question of its cover he says where is
the balance and I suspect they will try to
00:27:11
find
00:27:11
a balance in this hottest of hot potatoes in
any active political election year they're
00:27:18
going to try to split. The difference here
somehow and it will be fascinating to
00:27:21
see the how they do that we even have to
somehow they determine that Congress can
00:27:27
subpoena the president to turn over these
records but that certainly doesn't mean
00:27:32
that the president will do that if we
when fact may be kind of just going down
00:27:37
a blind alley here and no matter what they
rule nothing could happen between now
00:27:42
and November is that
00:27:43
a reasonable assessment Kimberly Well I
think we've had so many unprecedented
00:27:49
incidents in this presidency it be hard to
predict what the president will or will
00:27:53
not do at this point however I think it's
worth noting that one of the ways lawyers
00:27:59
especially in New York have tried to get
at the president's records is by going to
00:28:04
his banks and asking for tax documents and
other financial documents in the bank so
00:28:08
even if the president of
the United States rejects
00:28:12
a Supreme Court ruling that would require
him to turn over his tax returns which I
00:28:18
honestly I'm also not
00:28:19
a judicial scholar I have no idea what
would happen and I don't think that major
00:28:25
banks would be willing to do the same think
well that's all the time we have for
00:28:29
this week Eric thanks to Kimberly Adams
correspondence school for Marketplace and
00:28:34
Tom De Frank he's contributing editor to
National Journal this program is produced
00:28:40
by the Voice of America I'm Paul Brandis
of the West Wing reports down John John
00:28:45
USA Today thanks very much for listening.
00:29:18
From video way Press Conference USA
spirit your host Carol Castillo.
00:29:26
Welcome to Press Conference USA on The
Voice of America joining me on the program
00:29:31
is v.o.a.
00:29:32
International broadcaster and current affairs
producer Kim Lewis our topic on this
00:29:37
edition of the program how did the very
different lives and characters of us civil
00:29:41
rights leaders Malcolm x.
00:29:43
And Reverend Martin Luther King Jr intersect
an overlap despite their contrasting
00:29:48
philosophies and tactics were guarding
racial inequality did they have more in
00:29:53
common than we think our guest on this
edition of the program will shed light on
00:29:57
that very conundrum Peniel Joseph is
author of the recently published book The
00:30:03
Sword and the shield the
revolutionary lives of Malcolm x.
00:30:07
And Martin Luther King Jr Joseph asserts
in his book that notwithstanding their
00:30:11
very different family histories religious
affiliations and class backgrounds
00:30:16
Malcolm x.
00:30:17
And Martin Luther King inspired each other
throughout their adult lives according
00:30:22
to Joseph's quote Malcolm was
00:30:24
a political renegade unafraid to
identify racial justice in America as
00:30:30
a systemic illness that required nothing
less than the radical transformation of
00:30:34
the political and racial status
quo close quote Malcolm x.
00:30:38
Championed black pride black power and
decried white institutions and citizens for
00:30:44
what he called historic and contemporary
racial crimes close quote In contrast Dr
00:30:50
Martin Luther King is best known for his
philosophy of nonviolence as the foremost
00:30:55
leader of the civil rights movement in
America Dr Martin Luther King chose the
00:30:59
tactic of nonviolence as the most
effective tool in fighting against
00:31:03
institutionalized racial segregation
discrimination and inequality Peniel Joseph
00:31:09
Our guest is the Barbara Jordan chair in
ethics and political values at the l.b.j.
00:31:14
School of Public Affairs and professor
of his. And the founding director of the
00:31:18
Center for the Study of Race and democracy
at the University of Texas at Austin he
00:31:24
has written several books on African-American
history including Dark Days Bright
00:31:29
Nights from black power to
Barack Obama and Stokely
00:31:33
a life about the West Indian born civil
rights activist Stokely Carmichael among
00:31:39
several other books well author and Professor
Penny of Joseph joins us via Skype as
00:31:45
we all continue to practice social
distancing measures due to the coronavirus
00:31:49
pandemic Peniel Joseph welcome to the
program thank you so much for having me and
00:31:54
I'm delighted to welcome my colleague
international broadcaster and current affairs
00:31:58
producer Kim Lewis very happy to be here
so Peniel Joseph my 1st question to you is
00:32:03
what prompted you to write this book and
find these points of convergence between
00:32:08
these very 2 different civil rights leaders
Well I've really been studying civil
00:32:12
rights movement and African-American history
my whole life and I've written several
00:32:17
previous books like you mentioned about
civil rights black power social justice and
00:32:22
the 1950 s. And 1960 s.
00:32:24
. About Barack Obama and his connection
to those movements as well so
00:32:29
a lot of ways during that search I've done
over the years and decades now gave me
00:32:35
a really big interest into
learning more about Malcolm x.
00:32:40
And Dr King and the deeper I did the research
the more I saw the convergence rather
00:32:45
than divergence so because in
your book you describe m.l.k.
00:32:50
Martin Luther King as more of the
nonviolent insider you know he promulgated
00:32:54
movement of nonviolence in the face of
racial inequality and you characterize
00:32:58
Malcolm as the outsider he is known
as by any means necessary type of
00:33:03
a political renegade but you say in the
end that their relationship defied the
00:33:07
myths about their politics and activism
how so well both in East political icon
00:33:14
leaders they evolve over time and I
think the nature. Sure of the book it's
00:33:17
a duel by adversity so it lets you really
compare and contrast and see their
00:33:22
intersections and by side the 1st couple
chapters are by graphical and then you
00:33:27
really get into their political careers and
you look at them the same week the same
00:33:31
year the same month and the way in which
they crisscross really the entire world
00:33:36
talking about social justice so King's
notion of what I call radical black
00:33:41
citizenship over time converges with
Malcolm's notion of what I call rap black
00:33:46
dignity and Malcolm is really representative
of the 3rd World and this idea of this
00:33:53
titanic struggle between the global north
and global south in the context of the
00:33:57
postwar period the way in which billions
of people indigenously around the world
00:34:02
were asserting their freedom to think about
the 1955 Bandung Afro-Asian conference
00:34:08
the Nonaligned Movement anti-colonial
struggles in Africa really the larger 3rd
00:34:14
world and the Caribbean Malcolm is
representing that group including
00:34:19
African-Americans in United States in
making this argument for radical black
00:34:23
dignity by which he means the end to racial
violence and racial oppression that's
00:34:29
happening globally Dr King is talking about
something similar but with different
00:34:34
points of emphasis King talks about radical
black citizenship King is preaching
00:34:38
a philosophy a beloved community
00:34:41
a community free of racial oppression free
of economic injustice but he says that
00:34:46
citizenship is not just the freedom from
racial segregation and Jim Crow but
00:34:51
citizenship is
00:34:52
a guaranteed living wage its decent housing
is racially integrated public schools
00:34:57
and neighborhoods if the end of poverty
and also the end of war that's what he
00:35:02
argues that over time even
if they start out with
00:35:05
a lot of attention they come to see that
you really need both you need radical
00:35:11
dignity and radical citizenship globally
for social change to happen and we. The
00:35:17
evolution of their careers really by 963
you're going to see some real major
00:35:22
overlap between the 2 of them that are
just up in your research when you were
00:35:27
researching the childhoods of Malcolm x.
00:35:30
And Martin Luther King Jr What did you
find in their childhoods that were some
00:35:35
potential factors that made them the men
that they collect today they're very much
00:35:40
a contrast thing childhood's
of course Malcolm x.
00:35:43
His father is murdered by white supremacists
in Lansing Michigan in 1931 when
00:35:50
Malcolm little is only 6 years old
his mother is institutionalizing
00:35:54
a psychiatric facility really most of
Malcolm's entire life so his family is
00:36:00
fractured and his family had been black
nationalist they had been Pan African as
00:36:05
they had been followers of Marcus Garvey
was to Jamaican and African as founder of
00:36:10
the Universal Negro Improvement Association
so Malcolm has harsh childhood he grows
00:36:16
up in both Omaha Nebraska and Lansing
Michigan but by the time he's 15 he leaves
00:36:21
foster care he's 15 years old he's already
well over 6 feet he's going to grow into
00:36:26
a 6 foot 3 he goes to see
his half sister Elam
00:36:31
a college in Boston and he lives in the
Roxbury section of Boston so racial trauma
00:36:36
scars absolutely scars Malcolm x.
00:36:38
Martin Luther King Jr has
00:36:40
a different upbringing completely he is
raised along Sweet Auburn Avenue really
00:36:46
assigning the prince of the black upper
middle class is Father Martin Luther King
00:36:51
Sr is the head pastor of Ebenezer Baptist
Church were the most influential black
00:36:55
churches in the United States in Atlanta
and his mother is coming from generations
00:37:00
of African-Americans who have
been at least his father was
00:37:03
a sharecropper and the son of
00:37:04
a sharecropper but on and on his mom's
side he's an elite and what we see with Dr
00:37:08
King is that he gets the best education he
goes to Morehouse College at the age of
00:37:13
15 but both of them face racism and one
of the interesting. The anecdotes that I
00:37:17
tell in the book is the way in which they
both have vivid memories of 1939 and
00:37:23
seeing Gone With The Wind and seeing the
film Gone With The Wind scars both that Dr
00:37:28
King talks about how done with the wind
premiered in Atlanta and he remembers how
00:37:34
many people came out to see it but when
he saw it he found all the racism and the
00:37:39
way in which black people are portrayed
in their sepia toned film about racial
00:37:44
slavery found it very disconcerting
Malcolm says he saw in
00:37:48
a theater in Mason Michigan and he says
one Butterfly McQueen group plays one of
00:37:53
the in slave women who's constantly
being paraded by Vivian lay that white
00:37:58
protagonist he says one Butterfly McQueen
will interact I almost crawl under my
00:38:02
feet so he's humiliated by Gone With The
Wind so they both face racism and racial
00:38:06
segregation but certainly Dr King sees
00:38:09
a lot of black figures both men and women
who become role models for him in Atlanta
00:38:15
and education having that access becomes
key being part of the black church and
00:38:20
these institutions Morehouse College
historically black school Malcolm really finds
00:38:26
his role models initially on the streets
of Roxbury in Boston Massachusetts and
00:38:31
also Harlem and Malcolm is going to end up
in prison from 1946 to 1952 at the very
00:38:37
moment that Dr King is at Morehouse
College and Crozier Theological Seminary
00:38:42
Malcolm x.
00:38:43
Is in prison at 3 different prisons Norfolk
State Concord reformatory and Charles
00:38:49
Town Massachusetts and he's going to find
his role models within the context of the
00:38:55
Honorable Elijah Muhammad and the
Nation of Islam and Malcolm is
00:38:58
a prison organizer and so Malcolm's
political career really starts around
00:39:03
948-4950 is
00:39:06
a prison organizer and continues all the
way to his death in 1965 well Dr Jones of
00:39:11
what is it about the Nation of Islam that
while he was in prison that drove him to
00:39:16
this why. Legend compared to all of the
other religions that he would have been
00:39:20
exposed to in prison this was the one
that he was drawn to the most as is many
00:39:25
other especially African-American men
who want presell What is it about that
00:39:29
religion while their religion calls for
self-determination it grows out of Darby
00:39:35
ism and Marcus Garvey as you and I
00:39:37
a it provided now commit chance to both
heal his fractured family and also
00:39:43
a chance to find out about his own racial
identity so we think about the Nation of
00:39:47
Islam of the Nation of Islam there's something
both radical and conservative about
00:39:52
the Nation of Islam this mossy conservatism
is the fact that the nation is very
00:39:56
patriarchal and his organization Women are
supposed to be caretakers and heads of
00:40:02
the family men are
supposed to really assume
00:40:05
a kind of black patriarchy that they've
been disallowed from assuming because of
00:40:10
white supremacy racial slavery and racial
violence so it's very appealing the
00:40:14
Nation of Islam to a black
young man like Malcolm x.
00:40:17
Who's 20 years old when he enters prison
to try to reclaim that identity has been
00:40:22
lost and really claim
00:40:24
a measure of dignity as well Malcolm
graduated from the 8th grade and never
00:40:29
completes formal education but becomes
this brilliant speaker and social activist
00:40:35
and if the Nation of Islam
that really provides
00:40:37
a path for him to study black history to
start thinking about social change and
00:40:43
social transformation in
00:40:44
a systemic and really global way you know
the Nation of Islam introduces him to
00:40:49
African history and Islamic history and the
history of the world he starts reading
00:40:55
Shakespeare in the history
of Europe so it's
00:40:57
a very interesting and effective tool
for him to empower himself through
00:41:03
a religion that's both sectarian but also
very secular Malcolm's going to use their
00:41:08
organization to get into and try to change
the political landscape of both the
00:41:12
United States and the
entire world there is
00:41:14
a difference however right between
obviously. The Nation of Islam and then
00:41:18
mainstream Islam I think it's important
to make that distinction yesterday the
00:41:22
Nation of Islam was
00:41:24
a very idiosyncratic and very unique
practice and offshoot. Shaped it was the
00:41:30
Islamic faith as considerate and taught
that both the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and
00:41:35
w
00:41:36
d far too had been who had been the founder
of the group that disappeared in the 1930
00:41:41
s. Detroit so it's
00:41:42
a group that's coming out of the Great
Depression and has its own mythology about
00:41:46
race relations the creation of white supremacy
and what black people need to do to
00:41:52
support themselves and build parallel
institutions and eventually Malcolm by 964
00:42:00
is going to become an orthodox Muslim after
taking the pilgrimage to Mecca in the
00:42:05
spring of 1064 you're listening to Press
Conference USA on The Voice of America our
00:42:11
guest is Joseph author of the recently
published book The Sword in the shield the
00:42:16
revolutionary lives of Malcolm x.
00:42:19
And Martin Luther King Jr And we're coming
to you via Skype as we all continue to
00:42:24
practice social distancing due to the
coronavirus pandemic I'm Carol Casti l.
00:42:29
Along with v.o.a.
00:42:30
International broadcaster and our current
affairs producer Kim Lewis this is
00:42:34
a reminder that our press conference USA
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00:42:39
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the l. The way well here's
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00:43:09
as we all face the pen Demick please tell
us how you're doing well back to our
00:43:13
special guest Peniel Joseph author of the
sword and the shield revolution. Larry
00:43:17
lives of Malcolm x. And Martin Luther King
Jr We were just talking about Malcolm x.
00:43:21
And the Nation of Islam before the break
and you know Joseph let's go back to these
00:43:25
2 icons of the civil rights movement they
were contemporaries that they developed
00:43:29
any type of friendship or relationship
throughout their lives and as they pursued
00:43:34
their very different tactics to achieve
racial equality did they cross paths while
00:43:40
back they did but not in the way most
people think about the development of
00:43:44
relationships so they met one time in
person March 26th 1964 while the u.s.
00:43:50
Senate was filibustering and I 964 Civil
Rights Act that's eventually passed on
00:43:55
July 2nd and Dr King is holding
00:43:57
a press conference knocking next listens
to the press conference in the back of
00:44:01
a room on a couch in the u.s.
00:44:03
Senate and when they leave they run into
each other they shake each other's hands
00:44:07
they have small talk and their surrogates
make plans for them to meet again but
00:44:12
they never physically meet again in close
proximity like that again although
00:44:17
Malcolm actually does listen to Dr King
Jeb used speech in Harlem later that year
00:44:23
December 17th after Dr King has been awarded
the Nobel Peace Prize and now going to
00:44:28
sitting next to n.d.
00:44:29
Young who is one of King's lieutenants
Ambassador Andrew Young who later becomes
00:44:34
mayor of Atlanta and the United Nations
ambassador and what we think about their
00:44:38
relationship they become each other's
alter egos in the sense that they're
00:44:43
constantly listening to the other's speeches
and organizing and reacting Malcolm
00:44:50
famously calls at times Dr King in the
early sixty's especially an Uncle Tom
00:44:55
a race traitor he calls
the March on Washington
00:44:57
a forest on Washington King speaks out
against Malcolm and says that black
00:45:02
supremacy system bad is white supremacist
and this is keeping in line with the
00:45:06
mythology of the Nation
of Islam it's sort of
00:45:08
a reverse Klu Klux Klan that happens
after the 1959 Mike Wallace documentary
00:45:14
appears in the summer of $159.00 the hate
that. They produced so at 1st they're
00:45:19
very adversarial there's
00:45:21
a lot of tension and really what I argue
in the sword in the shield is that
00:45:26
Birmingham in 1963
really helps them set on
00:45:30
a convergent pathway
because Birmingham becomes
00:45:33
a school overall story of white violence
against peaceful demonstrators I think
00:45:38
sometimes we think that some 1965 but it's
not it's really Birmingham Alabama 963
00:45:45
the centennial of the Mensa patient
proclamation is the year everything changes in
00:45:49
the United States over the irony is that
there is absolutely no civil rights
00:45:53
legislation passed in $163.00 but all the
subsequent civil rights legislation that
00:45:59
is passed in America is because of the Year
963 and I enjoyed in your book when you
00:46:05
said the James Baldwin the iconic
literary figure who knew both m.l.k.
00:46:10
Martin Luther King and Malcolm x.
00:46:12
He said that they increasingly shared
00:46:14
a revolutionary political vision that bound
them together less as adversaries than
00:46:19
his colleagues whose initial
conflict gave way to
00:46:22
a shared destiny and of course we want to
get you to talk more about that shared
00:46:27
destiny but 1st let's just talk about
how each one of them contributed to the
00:46:31
Struggle for Racial Equality and black
dignity what would you say is the greatest
00:46:36
single contribution to the civil
rights movement by Malcolm x.
00:46:39
What is his lasting legacy
Well certainly Malcolm x.
00:46:43
And lasting legacy is twofold he's the
biggest global critic of white supremacy and
00:46:48
racial imperialism in the 2nd half of the
20th century and he's also the biggest
00:46:54
articulator of
00:46:56
a positive vision of black and African
identity around the world so those things
00:47:01
cannot be overstated So they're not connected
to policy in an over but they really
00:47:08
become institutionalized in part of policy
only think about the movement for black
00:47:12
studies and the way in which
Negroes become alack and after
00:47:16
a. American and African because of Malcolm
X.'s political activism and that's
00:47:21
globally across the world within about Dr
King his biggest contribution is going to
00:47:27
be globally to reimagining the idea
of African American citizenship and
00:47:33
really reimagining the idea of the world
house the entire world being part of
00:47:39
a community there could be free of racial
violence free of poverty free of war and
00:47:44
strife so King's notion of
00:47:47
a beloved community that people have to
struggle for is going to be his biggest
00:47:52
legacy and really when we think about
nonviolence we never add that Dr King talked
00:47:56
about nonviolent civil disobedience so
that's what makes Dr King connected to
00:48:01
Gandhi and traditions and revolutionary
traditions and the last 2 chapters of this
00:48:06
book are called the radical King and the
revolutionary King because he really takes
00:48:09
up Malcolm X.'s mantle of being this bold
truth teller and even though he never was
00:48:15
an advocate of violence his advocacy of
civil disobedience radical revolutionary
00:48:20
civil disobedience even leading up to the
poor people's campaign is really going to
00:48:24
contribute to his assassination and really
contribute to the fall in popularity
00:48:30
because King is using nonviolence in
00:48:32
a very very cold war so muscular and
revolutionary way and Peniel Joseph would you
00:48:37
say the converse Lee Malcolm x.
00:48:40
Particularly after his visit in 1064 after
the Hodge is it fair to say that he
00:48:45
began to drop his more radical postures
and then diverge from the more dogmatic
00:48:51
Nation of Islam movement and become maybe
closer to Martin Luther King he didn't
00:48:56
see Martin Luther King is weak as he did
earlier but rather came closer to his
00:49:01
positions I'd say that Malcolm's positions
broaden even before he leaves the Nation
00:49:06
of Islam I often tell people that
when you think about joining
00:49:09
a religion it's like joining
00:49:11
a political party where in the United States
the parties are Democrat Republican in
00:49:15
other countries they're called differ.
Things but you never agree entirely with the
00:49:19
party you use the party or religion to
leverage an amplifier own voice you might
00:49:24
want to be
00:49:25
a missionary and help poor people so you're
part of this group now come with the
00:49:29
same way Malcolm's
00:49:30
a brilliant intellectual and sometimes
even when you're saying the dogmatic party
00:49:35
line you're only saying it because you're
part of this political or religious group
00:49:40
and privately you feel differently so I
think that even as early as the early 1960
00:49:46
s.
00:49:46
He's converging with King's notion of radical
black citizenship I think it takes the
00:49:51
complete break from the Nation of Islam for
him to publicly state this in 1964 but
00:49:57
as early as 1963 and the war Malcolm is
in marches and in demonstrations even
00:50:04
though the Honorable Elijah Muhammad tells
Muslims not to do that who are part of
00:50:09
the Nation of Islam Malcolm meets with Fidel
Castro and I have that in the book in
00:50:13
September 1960 when reporters asked
00:50:16
a lot of Mohamad what does he think about
the meeting like mom and says If I had
00:50:21
known he was going to meet the dog Castro
I would have prevented it which tells us
00:50:24
that Malcolm didn't tell the top of the
lodge mommy he was going to meet with Fidel
00:50:29
Castro he just went and met with him so
Malcolm Is this global figure who is very
00:50:34
much interested in organizing the Nation
of Islam not just around religion and
00:50:40
spiritual faith but around secular politics
and that's what gets him into trouble
00:50:45
so we think about $64.65 the hodge certainly
broadens his mind but I wouldn't say
00:50:51
he becomes
00:50:52
a less radical I say actually becomes
more radical because he starts to realize
00:50:57
that to have radical and revolutionary
transformations doesn't necessarily take
00:51:02
violence violence is not
synonymous with being
00:51:05
a radical or revolutionary I think in his
earlier interation he thought that they
00:51:09
were synonymous I think one of King's
biggest lessons for Malcolm is that you can
00:51:14
bring whether it's America or the world's.
Oppressive powers to their knees through
00:51:19
nonviolent civil disobedience that becomes
part of moral political and social
00:51:25
suasion that leads to anti-racist public
policies and anti-racist institutions just
00:51:31
looking at the world today how relevant
are these 2 men especially to the younger
00:51:37
generation and what qualities of these men
would the younger generation be able to
00:51:42
identify with today I think they're
unbelievably relevant to the world today
00:51:47
especially in the context of a global
pandemic that we are all enduring there
00:51:52
a notion of radical dignity and citizenship
was built through the particular lens
00:51:58
of black struggle but it was very expansive
They're both human rights activist
00:52:03
Malcolm says that the civil
rights movement should be
00:52:05
a human rights movement and Dr King says
that materialism militarism and racism are
00:52:12
the triple threats facing humanity so we
think about contemporary movements whether
00:52:17
they're for black last matter or women's
marches then it isn't rites of immigrants
00:52:22
and Muslims rights of l g b t 2 they all
stand on the shoulders of Malcolm x.
00:52:29
And Martin Luther King Jr And I think the
way in which they tried to reimagine both
00:52:34
American democracy but these ideas of
citizenship and dignity are very very crucial
00:52:39
because when we think about contemporary
movements Dr King's notion of citizenship
00:52:44
is going to be so expansive that's going
to include people who are not American
00:52:48
citizens he thinks that we are all global
citizens and that's why he says he calls
00:52:53
it the world House that includes all of us
and we think about Malcolm this idea of
00:52:57
dignity Malcolm famously says after coming
back from Africa in 19641 of 2 trips he
00:53:03
took that lasted about 24 weeks
when the reporters tell him that
00:53:07
a lot of whites are excited about his seeming
change or transformation saying that
00:53:12
he's seen whites practice Islam and faith
in the Middle East and he thought. It's
00:53:17
that in terms of race relations you can't
have interracial coalitions he says that
00:53:21
until every single black person is accorded
the same treatment there's really not
00:53:26
going to be racial equality and racial
justice so what those 2 give to younger
00:53:32
people is really
00:53:34
a ments political integrity examples of
personal sincerity and really this love of
00:53:40
black people but also this love of poor
people they love underdogs Malcolm tried to
00:53:45
organize black people who were
imprisoned King slept on the floor as
00:53:49
a sharecropper Shaq's in Alabama Mississippi
they were just talking the talk they
00:53:54
really walk the talk and so I think that
lesson of real commitment and the fact
00:54:00
that Malcolm and King evolved they both
broadened their views to converge with the
00:54:05
other by 6768 Dr King is saying black
is beautiful and we need black pride in
00:54:11
something terminations by 964 Malcolm is
saying the ballot or the bullet but he is
00:54:17
for the 1st time saying that voting rights
really matter and that black people need
00:54:21
to organize themselves to get access to
citizenship so they show us how when you're
00:54:27
part of
00:54:27
a social movement you have to be able to
evolve and broaden your view and that
00:54:32
evolution really is very very important
for us now but especially in light of the
00:54:37
Penn Demick that is really uncovered the
depth and breath of racial disparity
00:54:42
around the world Him you have another
question I was just going to say in all of
00:54:47
your research what did you personally find
most fascinating about the 2 men whether
00:54:54
it's something in their private lives
or just being influential civil rights
00:55:00
movement influencers Yeah I did but I found
the most fascinating about each was how
00:55:06
deeply intellectual and can standard their
approaches were these were 2 people who
00:55:12
were constantly reading they were constantly
listening as well as. Talking so they
00:55:17
could both be very attentive listeners
they are constantly expanding their vision
00:55:23
of justice and including
different people n.
00:55:26
They both have blind spots when it came
to gender and sort of gender racism and
00:55:31
sexism and patriarchy Melcombe grows over
time and thinking does as well on this
00:55:36
score Malcolm by 64 is saying that the best
countries even as it in Africa African
00:55:42
women are co-leaders an equal leaders in
organizers and that the black liberation
00:55:47
movement in the United States should follow
that example King doesn't go that far
00:55:52
but he starts to understand and listen
to black women who are welfare rights
00:55:57
organizers who challenge and push him
to to to admit that he doesn't know
00:56:02
everything he doesn't know all these
issues even as he's trying to lead an
00:56:05
anti-poverty campaign black women like
Johnny Tillman and you are Sanders knew the
00:56:11
ins and outs of welfare legislation and
social policy way that he did not so I
00:56:16
think that what's so interesting is how
deeply committed they were wow there are
00:56:22
big thinkers and we think about them we
have to think about them as not just social
00:56:26
movement leaders not just minute they not
just as spokespersons but also as these
00:56:33
public intellectuals are really wrestling
with these ideas of race democracy
00:56:37
citizenship imperialism really globalization
and what King called the World house
00:56:43
and how do you build this beloved community
but also racial slavery I thought one
00:56:48
of the interesting things about them is
that you know the New York Times has
00:56:51
a 161000 project about racial slavery in
democracy from 1619 to the present and
00:56:57
both of them in their speeches Malcolm 1st
name King over time are laser like focus
00:57:04
De Castro by our racial slavery and Jim
Crow racial segregation an American
00:57:11
democracy and really capitalism in imperialism
struggles between the global north
00:57:16
and glow. Will Sal in the 1960 s.
00:57:19
So it's it is amazing to me out deeply
considered they were in terms of they're
00:57:25
both students is the best way to describe
them lifelong students of history of
00:57:30
politics I'm society and they're both
amazing sociologists and anthropologist
00:57:35
because they get along so well with different
people in different settings one of
00:57:40
the interesting tidbits is that Malcolm x.
00:57:42
Had an office at the United Nations he
knew all the Africa and the Middle East
00:57:47
there and
00:57:48
a lot of white diplomats and he had an
office beard throughout most of the 1960 s.
00:57:53
And that's how he introduces Muhammad Ali
to African diplomats that Muhammad Ali is
00:57:58
going to use when he visits Africa in
1964 after being the young heavyweight
00:58:04
youngest heavyweight champion in history
Peniel Joseph is author of the sword in
00:58:09
the shield the revolutionary
lives of Malcolm x.
00:58:12
And Martin Luther King Jr Joseph congratulations
on this fabulous book comparing
00:58:17
the lives of 2 giants of the civil rights
movement who had much more in common than
00:58:23
we previously thought Carol thank you so
much for this Conference USA on The Voice
00:58:28
of America was produced in Washington with
technical assistance from Gary Jaffe and
00:58:32
recount Alayo And joining me on the program
with international broadcaster and
00:58:38
current affairs producer Jim Lewis I'm
Carol Katz the Join us again next week for
00:58:43
another press conference USA
on The Voice of America.
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